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Dignified malefics
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johnd



Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Posts: 35

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject: Dignified malefics Reply with quote

http://www.archive.org/stream/sciencestars00peargoog#page/n42/mode/2up

Pearce totally disagreees that a dignified malefic is good.In fact it only increases evil.
One way to verify this is like him,to check if Aquarian or Capricorn regions are lucky when Saturn transits those signs.
Does any spring to mind?
Saturn was in Cap and Aq betwen 1989-1992
The Berlin wall was put up with Sat cap. and pulled down with the same position at the return

thanks
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johnd



Joined: 18 Mar 2014
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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_banking_rescue

Sweden when Saturn was in aquarius
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never read this book, or any work by this author. But I do wonder just from this snippet if he is confusing accidental fortitude for essential dignity here. In fact I have observed in several birth charts that malefics out of dignity behave differently to malefics in dignity, and that there is a sense of greater freedom and control when the malefics are in dignity, I'm thinking particularly of Mars. There can sometimes be a lack of measured control when Mars is in Cancer and Libra in my experience. I realise I may insult people who have these placements when I say this.

Obviously, as ever, other chart factors need to be taken into account.

Of course in this case the author is talking about mundane astrology and I have not observed the charts of countries so frequently that I could say much about it from a mundane point of view.
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johnd



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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I see it Paul, Mars with no dignity lacks the weapons to do evil,in Aries or Scorpio he is handed a gun and can kill as much as he likes.he feels powerful but he is even more evil

by the way he was mentioned here
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5645&view=next
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Mjacob



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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John is this related to the birth chart you showed us in another thread?
You have posted three new topics that seem to be about the same thing or am I missing something here Confused
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johnd



Joined: 18 Mar 2014
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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjacob wrote:
John is this related to the birth chart you showed us in another thread?
You have posted three new topics that seem to be about the same thing or am I missing something here Confused


Same book different topics Thumbs up
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Mjacob



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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got it! Take Saturn conjunct with sun in libra in the tenth. Saturn would aid the sun the and make the native great. But the sun is in fall in libra. Yes but who has a libra sun in the first house? David Cameron the UK prime minister, as a general e.g.
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnd wrote:
The way I see it Paul, Mars with no dignity lacks the weapons to do evil,in Aries or Scorpio he is handed a gun and can kill as much as he likes.he feels powerful but he is even more evil

by the way he was mentioned here
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5645&view=next


Well are we talking generally about what we feel malefics are like when dignified? If so then okay.

For me I don't see it that way. Most of the people I know with Mars in Cancer, for example, struggle to assert themselves in a way that is appropriate to the situation and there can be a confusion between being assertive and being aggressive. There can be a tendency to not assert themselves and then when they do they find that it is destructive both to themselves and others. I do feel the position of the Moon and other aspects involved mitigates things of course so I can only talk in the most general way here.

But I think this can be something each of us discovers for themselves. Perhaps your experiences are different. Can I ask, do you have a malefic poorly dignified? I am curious if this is something you're interested in because of your own chart.
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Mjacob



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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awaiting a delivery I wondered through old charts. I do not do decumbiture but remembered the time and place when an ambulance came for me and ages ago made and kept a chart. I see Saturn in libra right on the Asc. Mercury opposed a waning moon and mars weakened by the dragon's tale. He didn't do me any good

Sick
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Mjacob"]Awaiting a delivery I wondered through old charts. I do not do decumbiture but remembered the time and place when an ambulance came for me and ages ago made and kept a chart. I see Saturn in libra right on the Asc. Mercury opposed a waning moon and mars weakened by the dragon's tale. He didn't do me any good

Sick[/quote]

But where is Saturn natally?
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Larxene



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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:

For me I don't see it that way. Most of the people I know with Mars in Cancer, for example, struggle to assert themselves in a way that is appropriate to the situation and there can be a confusion between being assertive and being aggressive. There can be a tendency to not assert themselves and then when they do they find that it is destructive both to themselves and others.



For what it's worth, Firmicus Maternus says that:
Quote:

"...what is meant by the exaltation of a planet, in which it is raised up to a maximum of its own natural force, and what is its fall, when it suffers loss of that force."


...which seems to suggest, in my opinion, the same thing you observed: when a planet is in fall, the planet indicates lack of those traits signified by the planet, rather than manifesting a malefic form of those traits.

Schmidt also says something similar, although this is from a post five years ago:

Quote:
"By contrast, a planet in its depression (“fall”) is subdued to the extent that its power is weakened. Depression is not a benefic/malefic issue; opposition to domicile is. Opposition to domicile is not a strength issue; depression is."


http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=109&start=30
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For example, look at the chart John has recently presented in the "Unemployed with mental illness" thread:

http://www.horo.idv.tw/Astrolog32_EN/NatalSigns/NatalSigns.php?NUrl=&CNT=7867&Info=1980,9,25,17,53,M,0,0,1,0,0&Place=1:32:51:W,53:47:47:N&PlaceName=City+and+Borough+of+Leeds+%2C+England

Here you have Sun and Saturn in conjunction in Libra. Would you say that Saturn's exaltation mitigates the difficult influence he would generally be considered to have on the Sun? Or will Saturn's strength and the Sun's weakness in Libra just make Saturn very dominant without easing his negative potential?
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Mjacob



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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Paul"]
Quote:


But where is Saturn natally?


Late fourth close to 5th cusp and Aquarius 6th house. sun 24th sag and saturn 28th

Prev Solar return interesting too maybe
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Mjacob



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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
recently presented in the "Here you have Sun and Saturn in conjunction in Libra. Would you say that Saturn's exaltation mitigates the difficult influence he would generally be considered to have on the Sun? Or will Saturn's strength and the Sun's weakness in Libra just make Saturn very dominant without easing his negative potential?


Saturn conjunction with sun may harm the sun by cooling him. He does not aspect Mercury and the sun takes precedent to mercury in libra.sun in fall here and prevents Saturn aiding his friend mercury. I think good Saturn mercury aspects can assist mind

That was my take then.FWIW I would say house is factor here too

Matthew
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:

Schmidt also says something similar, although this is from a post five years ago:

Quote:
"By contrast, a planet in its depression (“fall”) is subdued to the extent that its power is weakened. Depression is not a benefic/malefic issue; opposition to domicile is. Opposition to domicile is not a strength issue; depression is."


http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=109&start=30


Thank you Larxene

I wasn't actually familiar with Schmidt's stance on this. I had read Firmicus Maternus on this before but for some reason I remember it that planets in dignity are strengthened and out of dignity weakened, and so put it aside.

I actually didn't think my view that planets in fall struggle to manifest their signification well was going to be supported by anyone else to be honest. As it borders too closely to confusing accidental fortitude for essential dignity. I do still think that there is a malefic quality that is exaggerated actually, so when Mars in Cancer does become aggressive it can tend to be out of appropriateness and harm themselves and others. So I think my stance is a bit more in between perhaps.

Interesting to hear other people's view on this now.
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