Rotten Landlord

1
I would really appreciate feedback on this chart. In October, I moved out of a house I had been renting. I asked for my security deposit back. After the period for receiving the deposit came and went, I called my landlord, who led me to believe I would get money back. Then, I received a notice from the landlord that said I owed them more money and that I would not get my deposit back.

So, what do people think? Here is the chart:
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Data:
Will I get all of my security deposit back?
October 31, 2014, 5:02:42pm CDT
Columbia, TN USA
35N36?54, 87W02?07

I am using the rules outlined in the second title ?If the Querent Shall Obtain the Substance Which He Demands, or Has Lent, or the Goods He has Pawned? (CA 173-74)

Aries rises during the hour of Jupiter. Jupiter is the night ruler of the fiery triplicity. I would consider this chart to be radical.

Lilly says to take the L1 and moon as the querent, with L2 representing the ?substance.? L7 represents ?him or her of whom he intends to demand or borrow money? (CA 173)

L1 is Mars in his exaltation. L2, my money, is combust and in fall in the seventh house. This shows that the landlord has my money. The combustion could also suggest that I won?t see my money. The poor condition of Venus also suggests ?damage,? so perhaps the landlord is charging me for some damage that I did not know about.

However, Venus is also L7, the significator of the Landlord. So, the condition of Venus could also tell me something about the Landlord. The poor condition of the planet could suggest that the landlord is not dealing fairly with me. While I was renting, I mostly dealt with the owner?s mother, who served as the rental manager. I never actually met her son, the person who owned the house I was renting. I think that Venus and the Sun in the seventh perhaps represent this mother-and-son duo. I am not sure what to make of Saturn or Mercury. Saturn is just outside five degrees of conjunction with the eighth house cusp, so I don?t whether or not we could use the ?five degree rule? to read it as an eighth house planet. Mercury is within five degrees of the seventh house cusp, just below it. Mercury rules the third house of communication. Perhaps Mercury has something to do with that. I sent my landlord two notices before I moved out. My landlord never responded to either of these notices, although he did cash the enclosed rent checks?so I know he got them.

Lilly presents these factors as giving a ?yes? answer: ?See if the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon be joined to the Lord of the eighth, who is the Lord of the Substance of the party quesited after, or see if either of them be joined, or in aspect to a planet placed in the eighth, if the Planet in the eighth be a Fortune or the aspect itself fortunate, he shall obtain the money desired . . . if he have deposited any pledge, it will be restored, whether the fortunate planet in the eighth be received or not; yea, if an unfortunate Planet be in the eighth, or Lord of the eighth, and receive either the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon, the Querent shall obtain his desire . . . ? (CA 173).

In this chart, L1 and L8 are the same planet, Mars. So could this be an indication that I will get my deposit back? Or is it necessary to find another planet to serve as L8? The best candidate might be Saturn, who is in mutual reception with Mars. However, these planets are not in orb of an aspect.

The planets representing the landlord and his mother are angular and fixed. This placement suggests that they are in a better position to do what they want, and to keep the money. My planet, Mars, has more dignity however. I find it interesting that Mars is in the ninth. So perhaps the law is my side? I have considered getting a lawyer. I believe I am legitimately due this money.

The moon is in the degree of the nodes?which suggests that certain things are beyond my control.

Honestly, right now I am feeling pretty hopeless.

LP
Allow yourself to be molded by your own talents.

My pronouns are she, her, hers

2
In my opinion there seems to be a misunderstanding in your judgment: The money you have given as security is now the money of the lessor and you want him to give it to you because you have - possibly - a claim on it.

So there should be an application of your significators:
lord of the first, Mars (but see below!) and the Moon and Venus, lady of your second house
to the quesited, i.e. the money of the lessor:
Mars, lord of 8th, 2nd of 7th.

So the Moon and Venus remain as your significators, and as there are no applications between one of these and Mars, the answer to your question is no.

3
Johannes:

Thanks for your reply. This chart has a common difficulty, which is that the same planets rule different houses pertaining to the question. So does Mars belong to L1 or L8? Does Venus belong to L2 or L7? I am sure I have read somewhere that the AC ruler always stays with the querent (but unfortunately, I can't remember where I read that).

In the section of CA that I mention, Lilly states that L2 represents the querent's "substance." However, his instructions for determining the answer don't really involve L2 much. He focuses more on L8 and it's relationship to the AC-ruler. Since L1 and L8 are the same planet, could they not be considered "joined?" That is something I am wondering.

LP
Allow yourself to be molded by your own talents.

My pronouns are she, her, hers

Re: Rotten Landlord

4
hi Leo-Poet, hope you're well. I really liked how thorough your own interpretation of your chart was, and thought I'd weigh in since you're looking for the view points of other horary astrologers.
Leo-Poet wrote:Aries rises during the hour of Jupiter. Jupiter is the night ruler of the fiery triplicity. I would consider this chart to be radical.
this may seem to be a small distinction, but charts don't need to undergo a test of radicality -- questions do. radical comes from the Latin word radix, meaning "root." often people discuss radicality in the context of whether or not a chart can be read, instead of in alignment with the traditional principle that the question being asked has roots in the soul -- that the matter is important and has fully perplexed the querent, that all potential solutions available to them have been exhausted, and they are now turning to the heavens for astrological guidance. that is what we mean by radicality.

things like hour ruler/Ascendant agreement help the astrologer spot when a question is potentially superficial or being put to the astrologer to test them, but we shouldn't lean too heavily on this principle and toss out charts because they lack this agreement. it's almost as if, when we get this agreement, that the question has an added level of harmony with that moment in time. Deb once said to me, "it's as if the heavens are really listening and preparing to respond, and the querent is genuinely open to what they have to say." of course this will have to not be contradicted elsewhere in the chart, but having hour agreement generally suggests an easier consultation process -- a good flow of astrologer/client/question energy.
Leo-Poet wrote:Lilly says to take the L1 and moon as the querent, with L2 representing the ?substance.? L7 represents ?him or her of whom he intends to demand or borrow money? (CA 173)
often Lilly says to take the Moon with L1 to indicate the querent. if you actually watch what he (and other authors) do with it, though, it's a bit more complex and interesting.

the Moon shows us the focus in every question. very often, the focus isn't on the querent, but the quesited. this is why in questions for fugitives, missing persons and lost items, we look at the Moon to signify the strayed or missing thing. (interesting how the Moon goddess Diana was also goddess of the hunt.)

anyway, the point is that you don't get two significators, even if the wording of Lilly seems to imply that you do. you have L1, and the Moon serves as another access point through which you may be able to procure whatever it is you are seeking. best to just refer to it as a general significator.
Leo-Poet wrote:L1 is Mars in his exaltation. L2, my money, is combust and in fall in the seventh house. This shows that the landlord has my money. The combustion could also suggest that I won?t see my money. The poor condition of Venus also suggests ?damage,? so perhaps the landlord is charging me for some damage that I did not know about.
it very well could, and could also indicate that if it is returned to you, it will be diminished in some capacity.
Leo-Poet wrote:However, Venus is also L7, the significator of the Landlord. So, the condition of Venus could also tell me something about the Landlord. The poor condition of the planet could suggest that the landlord is not dealing fairly with me. While I was renting, I mostly dealt with the owner?s mother, who served as the rental manager. I never actually met her son, the person who owned the house I was renting. I think that Venus and the Sun in the seventh perhaps represent this mother-and-son duo.
Venus in her own house has something to say, too, about the landlord's interest in getting your money back to you. (there is none.)
Leo-Poet wrote:I am not sure what to make of Saturn or Mercury. Saturn is just outside five degrees of conjunction with the eighth house cusp, so I don?t whether or not we could use the ?five degree rule? to read it as an eighth house planet.
it's your chart, your rules. I am pretty strict on 5? flat, but you know, Lilly has gone up to 6? so I think if it makes sense we can just count it as 8th. either way it makes sense -- damage coming to you from a landlord, and the question is about the loss of money. Saturn on the 8th house (money owed to you) is one indication of damage and loss.
Leo-Poet wrote:Mercury is within five degrees of the seventh house cusp, just below it. Mercury rules the third house of communication. Perhaps Mercury has something to do with that. I sent my landlord two notices before I moved out. My landlord never responded to either of these notices, although he did cash the enclosed rent checks?so I know he got them.
that sounds like a great assessment for Mercury's meaning there. could also indicate someone who's quick with their words, and gives more information about how the landlord's handling himself in this. Mercury's dispositor is Venus, who we've already identified is in bad shape, so there's that.

but then there's the consideration that Mercury is his turned 9th. a little later you bring up legal counsel -- this could be an indication of his.
Leo-Poet wrote:Lilly presents these factors as giving a ?yes? answer: ?See if the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon be joined to the Lord of the eighth, who is the Lord of the Substance of the party quesited after, or see if either of them be joined, or in aspect to a planet placed in the eighth, if the Planet in the eighth be a Fortune or the aspect itself fortunate, he shall obtain the money desired . . . if he have deposited any pledge, it will be restored, whether the fortunate planet in the eighth be received or not; yea, if an unfortunate Planet be in the eighth, or Lord of the eighth, and receive either the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon, the Querent shall obtain his desire . . . ? (CA 173).

In this chart, L1 and L8 are the same planet, Mars. So could this be an indication that I will get my deposit back? Or is it necessary to find another planet to serve as L8? The best candidate might be Saturn, who is in mutual reception with Mars. However, these planets are not in orb of an aspect.
a planet ruling both houses shows they are connected. doesn't mean they'll be brought back together, but rather somehow intrinsically united. this is your money and you deserve to get it back. seems as simple as that to me.

anyway, Mars is still L8. this is where we start to look at the Moon and see what contacts she's making and if she can bring this back. but right now I'm not seeing connections between Moon, Mars, Venus, or the Sun (planet posited in 7th). there is an applying square between Saturn and Moon where Saturn receives.. could be an indication of recovery, but not easily because it's Saturn, and very likely not equal to the original value of what's owed.
Leo-Poet wrote:The planets representing the landlord and his mother are angular and fixed. This placement suggests that they are in a better position to do what they want, and to keep the money. My planet, Mars, has more dignity however. I find it interesting that Mars is in the ninth. So perhaps the law is my side? I have considered getting a lawyer. I believe I am legitimately due this money.
could be something to pursue -- Jupiter's in trine to your Ascendant and receiving Venus/Sun's next aspect. look into it!
http://wadecaves.com | hello@wadecaves.com

5
Hi Leo-Poet,

This kind of thing really makes me mad. I don't have a lot to add astrologically to the great comments above, other than I see this as a "money lent out" question, so would normally take the money as the 8H and its ruler.

I am encouraged by the Mars-Saturn mutual reception. Normally I would take Saturn as in the 7H rather than the 8H due to my strict application of the 5 degree rule, but here, there is compelling reason to believe Saturn is on the 8H cusp, indicating the problematic nature of this dispute. If Mars is you, and Saturn is the co-significator of the money, then this bodes well: the traditional sources imply that mutual reception without an aspect can bring perfection.

Yes, lawyer, lawyer, lawyer. Though I am not your lawyer, and this is in no way legal advice, I would suggest you document every communication with the landlord, and send them a registered letter with your specific demand, if you have not already done so. Mars in Capricorn in the 9H is encouraging for seeking legal advice, and so is the Moon's application to Mercury.

Best of luck, and please report back for those folks who took the time out to respond to your query.

Kind regards,
Nina
Nina Gryphon

ninagryphon.com
Your questions answered.

6
Dear WCA and Nina:

Thanks both for your comments. Today is the last of classes before exams and I have been dealing with nervous students all day, so I have not had time yet to respond to any comments on this thread. I do have a couple of additional comments/questions, but it will take me time to compose them properly. I don't like just throwing them together.

I do have a lawyer now. I have also filed a complaint with a local government agency that deals with landlord-tenant disputes. I will definitely let everyone know what happens.

Here's an interesting bit that I noticed yesterday, though: I believe the Moon is in the antiscion of Venus. It's just under a degree off--but I am pretty sure that would still count. That strikes me as positive.

Thanks again. More to come.

LP
Allow yourself to be molded by your own talents.

My pronouns are she, her, hers

"More to Come" has arrived . . .

7
Hi WCA and Nina:

I wanted to write a more thoughtful response to your posts. Thanks again to you both.

this may seem to be a small distinction, but charts don't need to undergo a test of radicality -- questions do. radical comes from the Latin word radix, meaning "root." often people discuss radicality in the context of whether or not a chart can be read, instead of in alignment with the traditional principle that the question being asked has roots in the soul -- that the matter is important and has fully perplexed the querent, that all potential solutions available to them have been exhausted, and they are now turning to the heavens for astrological guidance. that is what we mean by radicality.
I can?t decide if this is hair-splitting or a profound distinction.

The OED gives this etymology for "radical;"

With use as adjective compare Middle French, French radical profound, intense, absolute (c1465), designating the humour or moisture once thought to be present in all living organisms as a necessary condition of their vitality (1516 in humide radical , 1587 in humeur radicale )

I find it quite fascinating that the word also has its roots in humour theory, which seems to me to reflect the concept of "soulfulness."

I have read a lot about this concept and how important it is. I do always take a look at it, and have a technique I use when I can?t find a scrap of agreement with the lord of the hour. I delineate sign and house placement of the hour lord into my analysis. I find that the hour lord still has something to say about the matter?perhaps some area that the querent doesn?t fully understand or know about yet.

often Lilly says to take the Moon with L1 to indicate the querent. if you actually watch what he (and other authors) do with it, though, it's a bit more complex and interesting.

the Moon shows us the focus in every question. very often, the focus isn't on the querent, but the quesited. this is why in questions for fugitives, missing persons and lost items, we look at the Moon to signify the strayed or missing thing. (interesting how the Moon goddess Diana was also goddess of the hunt.)
I myself read the moon as the ?flow of events,? not as a true co-sig for the querent. That?s one reason why I don?t think it is possible to give away L1 to another house. However, the querent is often intimately involved in what happens as the question plays out. Sometimes it can be hard to separate an action from the person performing the action. Perhaps that is why some astrologers give the Moon to the querent. That makes a certain kind of sense, but it is not my practice. I was quoting Lilly because I always like to show the foundation for my reading. Your point about the focus on the quesited supports this idea of the moon as the ?flow of events,? IMHO.

it's your chart, your rules. I am pretty strict on 5? flat, but you know, Lilly has gone up to 6? so I think if it makes sense we can just count it as 8th. either way it makes sense -- damage coming to you from a landlord, and the question is about the loss of money. Saturn on the 8th house (money owed to you) is one indication of damage and loss.
Normally I would take Saturn as in the 7H rather than the 8H due to my strict application of the 5 degree rule, but here, there is compelling reason to believe Saturn is on the 8H cusp, indicating the problematic nature of this dispute.
I have contemplated this issue a lot. Saturn is 5 degrees and seven minutes away from the 8th house cusp. Lately, I have been thinking that Saturn represents the landlord?s attempt to block me from getting the money back. Being outside five degrees maybe shows that there is ?wiggle room? to get around this blockage.

As I mentioned, I spent a great deal of time trying to figure out appropriate significators. I was particularly perplexed by how to represent the Landlord in the chart, if Venus is taken as the symbol of my money. Then I suddenly realized that Mercury could stand in for the Landlord. Mercury is a natural significator for the lease agreement. Moreover, Mercury also rules the third house of written documents and is conjunct the DC. Most landlord-tenant disputes turn on what the lease says or doesn?t say, and whether or not everyone abided by the lease. My attorney told me that if the dispute were to end up in court, the judge would ask to look at the lease right off the bat (note: I do not want to end up in court). She is now evaluating the lease to determine the legitimacy of the landlord?s claim; she is also looking for loopholes in the lease.

If Mercury represents the lease, then his condition shows how sound the lease is. The placement in Libra indicates that the lease favors the landlord, because my planet, Mars, is debilitated in this sign. However, Mercury is not particularly strong here, having dignity by term only. I don?t see the lease as being iron-clad. Mercury?s dispositor is debilitated Venus, so perhaps some legal issue undercuts the landlord?s claim to my money.

I have also thought more about the Moon in the antiscion of Venus. The moon is at 18+ Aquarius, and her antiscion is 11+ Scorpio. Venus is at 10+ Scorpio, and her antiscion is 19+ Aquarius. This connection between the two planets suggests that there could be some ?back door? method of getting the landlord to cough up the money. The antiscia say ?loophole? to me.

Another tidbit: L9, representing my legal counsel, is Jupiter in Leo. This lawyer is a tall, attractive blond woman who is very smart. JU is in the fifth house, which represents intermediaries and negotiators. Mercury is applying to Jupiter by sextile. I am hoping the attorney will be able to negotiate successfully with the landlord.
I don't have a lot to add astrologically to the great comments above, other than I see this as a "money lent out" question, so would normally take the money as the 8H and its ruler.
I think so, too. But Lilly mentions L2 as the sig for the money. However, when I read his method for getting a "yes" answer, L8 seems to me to be more important that L2.

Thanks again to you both. I will post again when there is a new development in this matter.

Namaste--
LP
Allow yourself to be molded by your own talents.

My pronouns are she, her, hers

Good News--Affirmative Resolution to Horary

8
Hello Friends:

I have a very happy update to this thread. Today, I received a certified letter from the local Division of Consumer Affairs. I had filed a complaint with that agency, in addition to working with the attorney. The letter forwarded to me a check from the landlord for my full security deposit. Yay!

I was actually quite surprised when I got the check. The landlord's office took a super long time to respond to the Division of Consumer Affairs and my lawyer. I assumed they were dragging their feet because they were planning some legal maneuver to continue asserting their ridiculous claim to my money. However, I guess they must have figured my complaint was pretty strong and they decided to fork over the deposit.

One of the issues was their contention that I owed them unpaid late fees. However, during the entire time I lived in the rental house, the landlord never said boo to me about anything and never indicated there was any problem with my payment of the rent. I did pay after the due date a couple times, but they accepted the money, and didn't act as if it bothered them in the slightest. The late fee they attempted to charge me was also illegally high. Our state limits late fees to 10% of the rent. The amount they wanted to charge was a little bit over that. It looked like they were padding the fees, because they rounded the 10% up to the nearest dollar. This is one of the things that outraged me the most, in addition to their attempt to charge me these fees in the first place.

In retrospect, I think the position of Saturn just outside the eighth house cusp may reflect the issues of timeliness in this matter.

I truly was expecting one of two things to happen: (1) either I would get a reduced amount back, or (2) the landlord would insist on keeping the money and I would have to take him to small claims court. Mars's (my sig) position in the ninth house suggested a "legal fight" to me. Also, the poor condition of L2 indicated a reduction in the amount (as has already been noted up-thread).

However, in lawsuit charts L10 represents the judge. In this chart, L10 is Saturn in Scorpio, a sign that dignifies my planet and detriments the landlord's planet (Venus). So, perhaps the landlord decided a judge would probably rule against him and he didn't want to risk it. After all, Venus is not a planet that likes to duke things out.

Thanks again to everyone who responded this thread.

With affection and gratitude--
Leo-Poet
Allow yourself to be molded by your own talents.

My pronouns are she, her, hers