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Planets on the ASC
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:38 pm    Post subject: Planets on the ASC Reply with quote

Hi All,

I am facilitating a discussion on the ASC at my group this week but have very limited time to research natal examples of angular planets on the ASC.

So I am shamelessly putting out an appeal here. Do any of you have interesting examples of nativities with planets on the ASC?

All contributions gratefully received!

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 668

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ross Perot has a few in the ASC, notably the Luminaries and an exalted Jupiter with Rigel too.

George Bush has Mercury rising with Venus and Saturn.

Konrad Adenauer has Mars and Saturn rising.

Queen Victoria has both luminaries rising.

Roger Federer has Venus rising.

All of those are interesting and have plenty to talk about.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1214
Location: Delhi

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to get you going:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hutchence,_Michael

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cainer,_Jonathan

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Versace,_Donatella

and someone local Very Happy

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Connery,_Sean
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Mark!

I'm a Virgo rising with Saturn inside the 1st and, as you can imagine, I have turned the examination of the planets sitting on the Ascendant into a very through and long-lasting research. Very Happy

I assume that you are mainly focused onto charts with a planet partile or tightly conjunct the Ascendant line, 'tho.

I don't have a permission to share some of the charts that I collected over time but, Mars inside the 1st was surely the most intriguing example of how directly this planet affects the appearance - oddly enough, a few members of my close family have very prominent birth marks on their faces. The position of Mars inside the 1st house perfectly describes the position of the birth-mark (conujunct Asc- forehead, deeper in the house- chin etc.). The only thing that I am still not sure I completely understand is what dictates the position of a birthmark in the centre of the face (vertical-wise). All members of my family have their birthmarks either in the centre of their forehead, between their eyes or right bellow their lips. Ina way, I would say that the astrological symbolism should probably be read somewhat differently when it comes to that - a nice contact with Venus can describe a mark as lovely no matter where it is placed. And, since our eye generally prefers symmetry, a prominent birthmark on someone's left cheek can be perceived as an anomaly whilst a centrally positioned one, between the eyebrows for instance, can look lovely and special. That's my impression, anyway.

Furthermore, nowadays, Angelina Jolie's birth chart is often used as an example of s stellar promise of beauty. We might not all be blown away by her appearance but, Venus on her Ascendant surely says that she is perceived as a beauty by many people.

Uranus placed 6 degrees away from the Ascendant in Bill Gates natal chart is also something that even the most radical traditional astrologers would not skip to notice (after all, what's traditional about this guy?!).

The presence of either Venus or Saturn inside the 1st and their mutual aspect usually says a lot about how the appearance of the Nativity is usually perceived as they age. Obviously, occasionally, it says something about the age difference between the Nativity and her partners but, very often, a benevolent aspect indicates the "black swan" phenomenon and suggests that the person's sex appeal is most likely to be increasing as he or she gets older (I think Mick Jagger has it in his chart, maybe it's a platic aspect but I think it's there).

However, the shape of planet always has the last word. A very good friend of mine is Gemini rising with Mercury smack on his Ascendant (2° before the Asc inside the 12th). Only his Gemini is retrograde and 5,5° away from the Sun inside the 12th hence burtn and he has been struggling with stammering since his early childhood (he is 40 now).

I hope you'll find at least some of these examples useful! Cool

Cheers,

aglaya
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 446
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

Nikola Tesla has Pluto rising and Uranus in the 1st house.
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geo



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 154
Location: Athens, Greece

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aglaya wrote:
And, since our eye generally prefers symmetry, a prominent birthmark on someone's left cheek can be perceived as an anomaly whilst a centrally positioned one, between the eyebrows for instance, can look lovely and special.


Hi Aglaya, and thank you for this wonderful facial analysis!

Just an opinion regarding the symmetry issue, from personal observation:
I think a strong indication for face assymetry would be planets on ASC-DC in a strong opposition with each other, left side influenced by planet on ASC - right side by planet on DC.

Regards,
Georgia
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

geo wrote:


Hi Aglaya, and thank you for this wonderful facial analysis!

Just an opinion regarding the symmetry issue, from personal observation:
I think a strong indication for face assymetry would be planets on ASC-DC in a strong opposition with each other, left side influenced by planet on ASC - right side by planet on DC.

Regards,
Georgia


would you say that it affects the placement of very visible birthmarks as well? Those on the face, I mean.
Nice point, anyway, thank you!


Michael Sternbach wrote:
Hi Mark,

Nikola Tesla has Pluto rising and Uranus in the 1st house.


I knew I wanted to mention someone else when I mentioned Gates! But, then, Tesla just evaporated from my thoughts! Great example, I agree!
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Meredith



Joined: 05 Jul 2012
Posts: 64

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret Thatcher had saturn on the AC. I always am interested in folks with that as I have it also. Saturn exalted lord of the 12th, ruler of the 3rd.

I recall Tom did an interesting mystery chart on this forum involving a baseball player, Jackie Robinson who had Saturn on the AC... a choleric temperament with saturn in leo on the AC... this caught my eye as I have the same sign AC/Saturn although I also have a melancholy secondary temperament.

My AC is 0 ' 29 Leo, Saturn is 3 ' 05, mars is 27' 09 .... I had a very difficult birth and had to be pulled out with forceps, there is still a slight pinkish area on my forehad 38 years later.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I recall Tom did an interesting mystery chart on this forum involving a baseball player, Jackie Robinson who had Saturn on the AC... a choleric temperament with Saturn in Leo on the AC...


I forgot about that, but it seems so appropriate. Robinson played with kind of a contained fury. The game may have forced that on him or the game was most appropriate for his personality. Baseball is start/stop action, unlike say European football or basketball, which is closer to continuous action. This placement of Saturn is a good example of a native being able to control but not change his temperament.
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure if these have been mentioned or how tightly conjunct the degree position you require, but here's a few that spring to mind:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Clinton,_Bill
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pope_Benedict_XVI
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/William,_Prince_(1982)

(only just read this btw, so I am probably too late with these examples)
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Folks,

Thanks to everyone for their feedback here! I should have perhaps stated earlier that the discussion topic I was actually faciltating and leading last week was on the first house. But I had a couple of reasons for wanting to hone in on the issue of planets near the ascendant degree. Perhaps I should explain.

I realised before running the evening that it was a more problematic topic than it sounded. We can all agree where the ascendant degree is but where does the first house begin and end? When you are dealing with an eclectic group of astrologers (as I was!) using both traditional and modern techniques that question is potentially contentious.

For example, I largely rely on whole sign houses and in that approach a planet can be still be regarded powerful and angular many degrees diurnallly above the ascendant. This fits with the outlook of ancient western astrology and much of traditional Indian astrology.

But this view totally contrasts with the approach of most modern astrologers who would consider any planet above the ascendant as in the 12th house and thereby correspondingly weak.

Then we have the view of astrologers steeped in medieval and renaissance astrology who use the so called '5 degree rule' and consider the power of the cusp is such that the house can be considered to start 5 degrees before a cusp. Moreover, depending on our chosen house system the first house will be demarcated differently.

I suppose there is a 4th approach indicated by Indian Sripati and Raman/Vehlow houses which place cusps in the centre of the house but I wasn't dealing with any advocates in my group last week!

I am generally not a strong supporter of a purely statistical approach to astrology but it is surely intriguing that Michel Gauquelin's famous research into planetary indicators and prominent individuals indicated plus zones of higher activity actually above the ASC in what most modern western astrologers consider the 12th house.

http://astrologynewsservice.com/articles/new-study-confirms-gauquelin-plus-zones/

A good example of what I am discussing is the natal chart of the Scottish inventor Alexander Graham Bell.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bell,_Alexander_Graham

For most moderns Bell's Sun and Saturn are clearly in the 12th house. Those using medieval and renaissance astrology would probably instead consider his Sun in the 1st due to the 5 degree rule but would still consider his Saturn in the 12th. Finally, those using whole sign, Sripati or Raman/Vehlow houses would place Saturn in the first house too!

I am only going into this extended discourse here to explain why I decided to focus so much on planets on the ASC or closely aspecting it. Regardless of our chosen house system, approach to cusps or even zodiac we can all agree the ASC degree is an extremely powerful point in a nativity.

So to belatedly answer Aglaya's question I was generally interested in planets in the first but decided to focus on planets in close proximity to the ASC. On a personal level I have a hierarchy of ascending significance.

1 Within the house
2 Within the house and in orb of the ASC (I use fixed planetary orbs-no moeity orbs)
3 Planets within the same bound as the ASC degree
4 Planets in partile conjunction with the ASC

Not being a person to do things by half measures I have now collated a database of over 250 famous nativities with planets near the ASC. I plan to continue adding to my list. I also have also put together a smaller collection of nativities with planets on the MC.

Meredith wrote:
Quote:
Margaret Thatcher had saturn on the AC.


No surprise I guess that quite a few British Conservatives have this.
For example Iain Duncan Smith and Edwina Curry:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Duncan_Smith,_Iain

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Currie,_Edwina

The British actors Sean Connery and Christopher Lee also have Saturn on the ASC

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lee,_Christopher

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Connery,_Sean

Meredith wrote:
Quote:
I always am interested in folks with that as I have it also.


Another example I noticed with Saturn in Virgo is the American Neo-Pagan writer Starhawk

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Starhawk

Although not especially common a few famous astrologers have Saturn on the ASC. For example,

Marsilio Ficino

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ficino,_Marsilio

Kim Farnell

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Farnell,_Kim

And just to balance things out we have the serial killer Edmund Kemper with Saturn in Virgo on the ASC.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kemper,_Edmund

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Quote:
Hi Mark,

Nikola Tesla has Pluto rising and Uranus in the 1st house.


This raises a relevant issue about about the reliability of the data we are using. I generally omit any data less than at least A rating from my research on this as timing is so crucial here. Although, I have included a B rated charts myself (Christopher Lee) above. Most of the charts I have collected are AA. Of course even AA isn't necessarily that reliable at times.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Tesla,_Nikola

Mark
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And just to balance things out we have the serial killer Edmund Kemper with Saturn in Virgo on the ASC.


Oh, lovely, with Saturn in Virgo inside the 1st, I was really looking forward to reading about this kind of balance! Mr. Green
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aglaya wrote:
Quote:
Oh, lovely, with Saturn in Virgo inside the 1st, I was really looking forward to reading about this kind of balance!


Here are two vocalists with Saturn conjunct the ASC degree. Donna Summer is Virgo rising too. I hope that has restored the honour to possessing Saturn in Virgo on the ASC? Very Happy

Donna Summer:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Summer,_Donna

Nina Simone:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Simone,_Nina

Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2686
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

as always you're a delight to read, and i miss your more regular presence here on the board, not to mention the astrological insights and wisdom you bring. oh well!!

i was reading the introduction to ben dykes book 'mashallah and sahl' the past couple of nights.. i had read over the sections of the book that motivated me to buy the book a few months ago, but only got round to reading his exhaustive intro after the fact! it is a bit backward, but hey.. at any rate he discusses the issue of houses and the concept of a planet being close or further away from the ascendant in his introductory remarks which take up a number of pages in the front of this book. the general view conveyed is that the further away from the ascendant while being in the same sign - the less powerful it is.. although now that i think of it he discusses the idea of power and doesn't like using that word to make the distinction. the angles are often referred to as the 'stakes' and etc. etc. it is interesting information for anyone wanting to better understand the topic on planets on angles from an astrologically historical perspective..

as mark knows, but which i don't feel like making public - i have a few planets close to the ascendant and decendant axis. this topic of just how much it matters whether a planet is in the same sign as the ascendant, or just how far off the angle and into the 12th is of great interest and personally relevant.. sorry i was unable to contribute directly. no one came to mind!! maybe that canadian astronaut(chris hadfield aug 29 1959 sarnia, canada 448pm - 18 cap rising) with saturn in cap and cap ascendant would have been a good one to use, but i forgot about it and don't have my charts organized in this way - planets in the angles..

thanks for sharing nina simone and donna summers charts. i don't know that i had seen them before - maybe nina's, but not donna's..
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