Hi all,

I thought this may be an interesting exercise. Question is whether to take voluntary redundancy or stay in job.

I reckon that in a lot of these cases the conclusion won't be clear cut.

Of course a potential outcome may be that application for VR will be refused.

As this is a 'should I?' question though I looked at 1st house as current situation and 7th house as potential future situation and their relative strengths and weaknesses.

So, first house has the great malefic, not well dignified (go?)
Lord 1 exalted, lord 7 in own terms but under the beams - maybe reflecting that outcomes are as yet hidden and uknown (stay?)
Moon separating from sun and applying to venus (no clear message in this state of affairs or mildly a 'go' seeing as venus is the sect benefic ?)
Lord 1 separating from saturn and applying to the sun by antiscia (mixed or mildly a 'go'?)

I tend to you use whole sign houses, so maybe sun here functions as employer, jupiter there and ruling sun could fit here as I work for a large town council. Jupiter stationing and sun isn't the sect light - reflecting the organisation needing to make severe cuts.

When I asked the question, I was nervous about leaving but some days later and I feel like I will take a chance and go if I can. I have a few weeks to put my application in.

Not sure what to make of Lilly's considerations before judgement re saturn being in the AC.
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Hi Meredith:

I'd appreciate it if you could post the chart data. I am having difficulty reading your chart in its current format. If I have the data, then I can recast the chart using my own software. I like doing "stay or go" charts, so I can give you some feedback if I have the data.

LP

Hi Leo Poet,

Sure, thanks for taking a look
27/11/2014, 6.51 am, long/lat: 2w15, 53n30 (Manchester, England)

M

Hi, Meredith!

I'm not really comfortable with "should I" type of questions and I tend to advise the Querents against asking them because, with a "should I" question, the Querent technically wants the stars to make a decision instead of him. With a good insight into the situation and into the future stellar promise (needless to add, sometimes even a better insight into the past activities helps the Querent unravel a situation) we have more tools in our hands to decide which direction to take. But, even then, we are still in a position to choose the direction that the stars don't "advise" us to take.
So, if I were to analyse a chart for a "should I leave my current job?" type of question, I would simply examine the shape of the 10th and the 1st as well as their relationship and see if the current position is actually a good place for the Querent. The future aspects could, then, be used as indicators of the upcoming activities and of the Querent's prospects in terms of finding a new job. If, however, the Querent already has a second option, I'd compare the two options. This way or the other, it's up to the Querent to decide. Seeing an applying aspect of L1 would not make me believe that the chart is suggesting "Go for it!". I'd probably read it as the Querent's strong will to do it no matter what the chart says.

In addition, it is hard to even assume whether the current situation is good for the Querent without knowing the background story. With L1 placed inside the 2nd and with L2 inside the 1st, financial situation appears to be strongly emphasized however, it would be important to compare the shape of the two planets (in strong mutual reception and with L2 in a separating conjunction with Mercury) with the reality in order to understand the situation before we could even start making any conclusions.

The separating sextile of the luminaries could be indicative of a recent (and potentially gradual) change that has caused the working atmosphere to become less appealing than it used to be in the beginning. Mercury at a very late degree of Scorpio (the Querent's ruler) and about to change signs is surely indicative of a some sort of change as well. Once it enters the new sign, it will activate the Sun (authorities, the 9th) which, again, we can't really understand untill we have a between insight into the situation.

Cheers,

aglaya

Hi Aglaya,
I don't understand your problem with "should I?" type questions. Isn't that what everyone is implicitly asking when turning to horary for guidance? The querent still has to weigh up the options and make the decision as an act of free will.
The alternative is the "will I?" or "will so and so?" type question, which is not seeking guidance but fatalistically expecting to be told what will happen.
Albertus Magnus brought this point up in his defence of the practice of horary, explaining in his Speculum Astronomiae (13th cent.) that questions which seek guidance:

? do not destroy the freedom of the will, but, on the contrary, they rectify and direct it (such as, with a question about whether a negotiation might be useful to me or not; or about which of two things it might be better to buy; and about a route that I intend to take, whether it might be better to proceed or to delay). To destroy such would be more against free will than for it, because to have to take advice and to negotiate is one of the most persuasive means by which it is demonstrated that everything does not happen due to necessity

The type of questions he could not defend were those that asked what will happen, rather than those that asked for guidance on what can or should be done. Having read several of your posts I get the feeling that you would probably agree with Magnus, and this is really about what those words "should I?" mean - that the querent should understand that we can report the astrological position, and leave with them the choice of what they will do.

Sorry for drifting a little off-topic Meredith, but I have noticed this point has been raised a few times by different astrologers lately, so wanted to take the opportunity to give a different perspective on it.

To comment on your chart, I would want to know which of those two options you place the focus on. For me, in this kind of question, I would first establish that the querent is identifying the pros and cons of accepting the redundancy, and assume that if the chart is bad, then they would be doing themselves a disservice but taking that offer (the default option then is to assume that they should not accept it, but stay in the job). Is that the position you take yourself in the judgement of these kinds of charts?

Hi Aglaya,
I don't understand your problem with "should I?" type questions. Isn't that what everyone is implicitly asking when turning to horary for guidance? The querent still has to weigh up the options and make the decision as an act of free will.

Hi, Deb!

It's nice to hear from you!

I'll try to explain. Referring to the bolded part of your reply; it's exactly the concept that i have noticed that some persons don't entirely understand. Some Querents, not all of them, tend to see Astrology as a virtue that explains their faith (written in the stars and unchangeable) and want a fatalistic reading. In a way,I can't always be sure whether this form of Question implies constructiveness or fatalism so I tend to ask them to rephrase it just to be sure.
A year and a half ago, I woman who had recently been advised to terminate her pregnancy due to extremely bad medical results, asked "Should I terminate the pregnancy?" and I had to ask her to rephrase it. I needed to make sure that she understands the concept- I can't tell her to terminate it, I can only tell her whether the stars support the scenario that she'd already been given by the doctors; that the fetus would not survive the whole pregnancy and that she has the option of waiting for the end of pregnancy to happen naturally (which also puts her health and life in danger), in hospital (which potentially means being separated from her two children for months) or to terminate it right away. She understood me and, instead of rephrasing the Question, she simply explained that she wants to know as to how badly her health would be endangered if she refused to terminate the pregnancy. For what it's worth, when she left me she still didnb't have a definite answer to her problem but she was, at least, better informed.

On occasions people decide to ask a questions when they want someone to support their already (or almost) final decision or want to simply throw the hot stone into the lap of the stars and receive a ready-to-use answer. Besides seeing this as an unnatural approach (Horary can provide a much better insight into the situation, after all), I often see the announcement of another trouble in such situations - of the possibility that the Querent comes back and blames either the stars or me for a non-satisfactory outcome. Because, people who approach Horary in this manner often don't understand that, in the end, they still keep the right and the privilege of deciding on their own which is exactly what you underline in your post. From this perspective, the Questions beginning with "Will I?" and "Should I?" sometimes suggest the same kind of approach.
Of course, it could be just a statistical thing in my case but, I would say that the majority of people who wanted a fatalistic answer, used the "Should I?" and "Would I?" type of Questions which has made me become wary of them and pushed me into introducing the second round of the question shaping process .
Coming to think of it, I realise that this construction doesn't sound exactly the same in different languages so, it could be a partially linguistic problem.

This didn't come out of the blue, obviously.
A few years ago a lady asked me, oddly enough, the same question "Should I leave my job?". We talked about her situation and she said that she'd been experiencing a drastic form of mobbing from her superior at work. She was a recently divorced single mom with no other incomes. The situation at work was, indeed, catastrophic even according to the chart however, I didn't see any chances of her finding a new job any time soon. I felt really sorry for her but, I explained that the situation at work would not change easily and that she can expect more damage in the future. Unfortunately, I had to warn her that she might not be able to find a new job that easily either. She was in a bad situation because she technically had to suffer more mobbing just to be able to provide food for her kids but, I couldn't make a decision instead of her. She didn't like that! She said that she wanted a YES or NO answer. She wanted either me or the stars to decide instead of her although she had been given so many informations to use. She was very angry! I met her a year later and she confessed that she had paid for an online Horary reading. The astrologer initially told her the, more or less, same thing but, when she insisted on a straightforward answer, he said:"You hate to be someone's victim so, since the situation isn't going to be any better, YES, you should leave your job!". Which she did. 9 months later she could not afford to pay for a rent any more and had to move into the basement in her parents' home. She was equally angry with the other Astrologer. There seemed to be no way out of that situation.

To resume, the "problem" that I have with them is that, some times, even after a good intro conversation, I'm unsure whether the Querent is after a definite verdict (fatalistic approach) or has simply formed the Question in this manner but actually wants a sincere guidance. So, I tend to advise them to reformulate them to be sure. In most cases, the reformulated question immediately tells me what their approach is. We could say that it is a problem of technical if not linguistic nature.
Obviously, that is not to say that i would always refuse to cast a chart for a Question that begins with "Should I...". For what it's worth, sometimes, I don't even need to hear the Question, I know what the Querent wants to know even after a short conversation. Having said this, I have to say that I actually grinned when I read your reply because I realised that the last chart I delineated a few days ago was actually for a Question that begins with "Should I?". The Querent wanted to know whether she should start a new cycle of fertility treatments. She felt horrible the first time she underwent a similar treatment and, at the same time, according to the mos recent medical tests, the chances of her becoming pregnant were actually quite low. So, she wanted to know if she should even torture her body again. But, in this case, her intentions were crystal clear and I knew that she didn't want me to decide for her - she only wanted to know whether the treatment would result in pregnancy. I didn't have to ask her to reformulate the Question. And she didn't want me to say "Yes, you should do it", she was happy with a reading that gave her a full insight into the nearest future and her fertility.

In addition, when I mentioned my personal approach to such questions, I didn't intend to advise Meredith against asking them (I thought I should say this), rather, I wanted her to know that, I personally don't have much experience in answering such questions without any background informations. But, surely, as an Astrologer, she must have approached the Question with a cold head and knows what she needs from the chart.

Cheers,

aglaya

Hello Friends:

I appreciate the conversation regarding ?should I? and ?will I? questions. Personally, I am not bothered by these phrasings, although I definitely understand the concerns Aglaya raises. We should always try to set appropriate expectations when we give a reading?but in the end, we have no control over what the client does or wants.

So, I will move on to the chart at hand. I use Regiomontanus houses only. I decided to treat this as a classic ?stay or go? question, using the instructions provided by Lilly on pages 212-14 of CA. This section refers specifically to moving house, but it can be applied other situations in which a querent considers the possibility of ?making a move? and changing her current situation.

The first house and its lord represent the querent?s current circumstance. The seventh house and its lord represent the proposed or future circumstance. If Lord 1 is in better condition, then the querent should stay. If Lord 7 is in better condition, then the querent should go. Lilly also advises the astrologer to evaluate the Moon?s progress. Luna leaving the fortunes and applying to functional malefics is an argument to stay; Luna leaving infortunes and applying to functional benefics is an argument to go.

The first house immediately draws my attention because it is so packed. This condition indicates a lot of activity related to your job. My sense is your current job involves a lot of strain and draws a great deal of your energy. Saturn rising could also suggest that work is a burden, or extremely difficult for you right now.

Saturn has no essential dignity of his own, which indicates that he brings stress to the querent. He is in mutual reception with the AC ruler, and the two are in an applying sextile. However, Saturn has no strength to help out L1 because he is peregrine. In addition, Saturn afflicts L10, the querent?s employer. You work hard at your job. Saturn and L10-Mercury in the domicile of L1 suggest that you are well qualified for the job, but their poor condition demonstrates that you don?t get much satisfaction from your work.

I like Aglaya?s reading of the relationship between Saturn and Mars. Your job provides financial support for you; this is one of the strongest ?stay? arguments.

Because this question concerns employment, I looked at the Part of Resignation and Dismissal (SA + JU ? SU), which can give insight into the stability of the querent?s job. This part is at 14.27 Leo in your chart. When the horary Moon immediately applies to this part by conjunction or opposition, the querent?s job is unstable. Your Moon?s next aspect is an opposition to this part. This fact, as well as the rising position of Saturn, point towards an impending separation from your job.

The seventh house lord, representing the proposed change, is Venus in Sagittarius. She has dignity by term. So, she is not very strong. L1 definitely has more dignity. Still, L7 is a fortune herself, in a sign ruled by a fortune. The placement in Sagittarius says ?freedom? to me. Leaving your job will relieve you of a lot of the stress you feel right now. You'll likely enjoy your life more, in some ways, if you leave.

The Moon has recently completed contacts with Saturn and Mercury, and now applies to Venus and Jupiter. This progress is an argument to ?go.? However, the condition of L8 concerns me. This planet represents your financial circumstance should you decide to ?go.? L8 is Mercury, peregrine and conjunct Saturn. You may feel less stress if you leave, but you may not have as much money.

I hope this reading has been helpful. I wish you the very best of luck, Meredith, as you make this difficult choice.

Namaste--
LP

I don't want to derail the thread so let me quickly say that I get your point Aglaya. That is the position I assumed you were taking, and I agree, it is not really about those words, but the approach taken towards identifying what the querent seeks to know and finding ways to allow them to make a more informed decision. This is different to what I have seen published elsewhere, where the "rules" for horary are said to require that the querent doesn't ask what they should do, but only about what will happen. As a result, I've seen many astrologers suggest that "should I" question are inappropriate, when of course they are not. Reframing a question seems to me to be a good way to explore and probe the point that the query fundamentally rests upon. When I have felt it necessary to do this myself, I've also often found that what is really being sought I quite different from what I initially assumed. (This is why consultations are so much better than any horary service that can be ordered through a form).

aglaya wrote:
In addition, it is hard to even assume whether the current situation is good for the Querent without knowing the background story. With L1 placed inside the 2nd and with L2 inside the 1st, financial situation appears to be strongly emphasized however, it would be important to compare the shape of the two planets (in strong mutual reception and with L2 in a separating conjunction with Mercury) with the reality in order to understand the situation before we could even start making any conclusions.

Hi Aglaya,
In Regio L2 is Jupiter, so in the 9th. In all honesty, finances are not the biggest concern, it?s more about finding satisfaction however, of course finances are important as I don?t have independent wealth so I am concerned about at least being able to put bread on the table. I am, however, fortunate to have supportive family and friends so am not worried about winding up destitute and homeless. I don?t say that flippantly, as I had a workmate who didn?t have any close family and when he left under the voluntary redundancy scheme and all the worries preyed on his mind ? that was a real (if realistically unlikely) concern. My job is not particularly well paid and my pay has been reduced gradually over the last four years or so. However, my terms and conditions are somewhat favourable, for example, a safe pension and I get lots of annual leave each year. I do have some savings to fall back on and would take on an easy-to-get minimum wage job if it became a necessity.

aglaya wrote: The separating sextile of the luminaries could be indicative of a recent (and potentially gradual) change that has caused the working atmosphere to become less appealing than it used to be in the beginning. Mercury at a very late degree of Scorpio (the Querent's ruler) and about to change signs is surely indicative of a some sort of change as well. Once it enters the new sign, it will activate the Sun (authorities, the 9th) which, again, we can't really understand untill we have a between insight into the situation.

This is correct, my duties have become more diverse and pressured and yet I have taken various pay cuts over the last few years.
A further bit of background? the voluntary redundancy scheme has been offered intermittently for the last four years. I nearly left the first time but couldn?t deal with the uncertainty so I stayed. Then the next two times were difficult as someone close to me became very ill and died so I just wanted some stability in life as I was not feeling 100%. However on the flip side, work has become more and more stressful. This past year I was involved with quite an exciting project but it has also been incredibly stressful ? and I?m only now just feeling okay. The future is uncertain and the job may become more stressful again because of the wider situation in the organisation as a whole.

Deb wrote: To comment on your chart, I would want to know which of those two options you place the focus on. For me, in this kind of question, I would first establish that the querent is identifying the pros and cons of accepting the redundancy, and assume that if the chart is bad, then they would be doing themselves a disservice but taking that offer (the default option then is to assume that they should not accept it, but stay in the job). Is that the position you take yourself in the judgement of these kinds of charts?

Hi Deb,
To clarify my position, I have wanted to take the voluntary redundancy since it started being offered but as said earlier it was not a good time as the last time it was offered I was grieving and needed to re-group, although at that time in my head I definitely planned to leave at the next available opportunity if one occurred. My idea was to use that time to plan out what I would do once I left. However, as said, during that time my work has been incredibly stressful and then I was involved in a year long project that was also stressful and because it was different, was demanding and kept my full attention, instead of being able to just ?go with the flow? and make plans until the next opportunity to leave under redundancy came. The last two years, has just been me keeping my head above water and trying to stay as healthy as I possibly can, apart from one or two hobbies and keeping up with family/ close friends, I?ve had no energy for anything else.
However going back to the central question?I suppose you could therefore say the emphasis was naturally on leaving although because of the last two years being such a drain ? which you could argue is maybe a reason to go through with original plan to go ? I am questioning this, maybe just because of feeling tired, gloomy and a bit jaded. Initially I just thought ?I?m not going to go? out of feeling negative and afraid (Saturn on the AC?) but now I waver between both options making me fearful.

Leo-Poet wrote: The first house immediately draws my attention because it is so packed. This condition indicates a lot of activity related to your job. My sense is your current job involves a lot of strain and draws a great deal of your energy. Saturn rising could also suggest that work is a burden, or extremely difficult for you right now.
Saturn has no essential dignity of his own, which indicates that he brings stress to the querent. He is in mutual reception with the AC ruler, and the two are in an applying sextile. However, Saturn has no strength to help out L1 because he is peregrine. In addition, Saturn afflicts L10, the querent?s employer. You work hard at your job. Saturn and L10-Mercury in the domicile of L1 suggest that you are well qualified for the job, but their poor condition demonstrates that you don?t get much satisfaction from your work.

This is bang on, Leo-Poet, as I alluded to in my previous comments.

Leo-Poet wrote: I like Aglaya?s reading of the relationship between Saturn and Mars. Your job provides financial support for you; this is one of the strongest ?stay? arguments.

In the sense that it?s easy for me to turn up and get that regular income, certainly ? and as said earlier the other benefits, such as holidays.

Leo-Poet wrote:Because this question concerns employment, I looked at the Part of Resignation and Dismissal (SA + JU ? SU), which can give insight into the stability of the querent?s job. This part is at 14.27 Leo in your chart.

I had not thought of using the lots ? thank you, I will ponder that. Do you take aspects to the part as more important than the lord of the part?

Leo-Poet wrote: The seventh house lord, representing the proposed change, is Venus in Sagittarius. She has dignity by term. So, she is not very strong. L1 definitely has more dignity. Still, L7 is a fortune herself, in a sign ruled by a fortune. The placement in Sagittarius says ?freedom? to me. Leaving your job will relieve you of a lot of the stress you feel right now. You'll likely enjoy your life more, in some ways, if you leave.

It is that pull isn?t it between the boundless hope of Jupiter and the cold hard necessity of Saturn?

Leo-Poet wrote: The Moon has recently completed contacts with Saturn and Mercury, and now applies to Venus and Jupiter. This progress is an argument to ?go.? However, the condition of L8 concerns me. This planet represents your financial circumstance should you decide to ?go.? L8 is Mercury, peregrine and conjunct Saturn. You may feel less stress if you leave, but you may not have as much money.

Moon has not yet applied to Saturn and will not reach mercury before he changes sign. Moon is separating from the sun and will next hit venus, Saturn, then Jupiter.

Leo-Poet wrote: I hope this reading has been helpful. I wish you the very best of luck, Meredith, as you make this difficult choice.

Namaste--
LP

Thank you Leo-Poet, and everyone.

Hello Meredith:

I am typing this reply on my iPad, so it is hard for me copy and paste comments into my response.

With respect to your question about the Moon: The moon would have formed a sextile to Saturn and Mercury as she moved through the end of Capricorn, just before entering her current sign of Aquarius.

With respect to your question about the use of lots: I was taught to use this particular lot in this way in a horary. I don't typically use lots at all. The Part of Resignation and Dismissal has, to me, been very useful in job horaries, so I tend to use that one.

LP

I agree with most of what Leo-Poet has written, though I'd probably adopt a slightly different approach to the judgement of this chart, because from what you say Meredith, it seems to me that as you asked this question your mind was really filled with concern about whether to accept voluntary redundancy, so this chart is going to be mostly descriptive of that scenario, whilst being descriptive of you personally and how you are affected by the job. In any case, the judgement would result in a similar theme. The main concern for me is that the 10th-ruler is afflicted (its conjunction with Saturn in the first suggesting that the job is wearing you down and affecting your health), and it is also about to enter combustion. In many similar questions I've often seen the 10th ruler or Moon about to undergo combustion at a time that someone has decided to walk away from a current job and begin a whole new chapter of their life professionally.

The applying sextile from asc-ruler Mars to Saturn interests me, partly because of the mutual reception. Mars is strongly dignified and effectively committing its disposition to Saturn, which means that it can take control of the things that Saturn signifies. In this chart Saturn governs the third house, which is where the Moon is placed according to Regio division (by whole sign asc-ruler Mars is in the third so either way there appears to be some kind of connection with third house issues). I wonder if this is relevant to what you would really like to do if you were not feeling wearied by the job. Does this make sense to you? Are you contemplating study? The Moon is applying to the sextile of Venus in which is itself applying to Jupiter in the 9th. Overall I think this is a good time to think about making creative changes - I think you are caught in the trap of knowing you want to do something more creative, but feeling too exhausted by what you are doing to take the step - but note how Jupiter is dominating the ascendant. Think about what this mean to you - if you are tempted by the idea of voluntary redundancy there is nothing in this chart to suggest you would be foolish to follow that path (and lots to suggest the opposite).

Good luck

Thanks guys for all your help!

Leo-Poet wrote:
With respect to your question about the Moon: The moon would have formed a sextile to Saturn and Mercury as she moved through the end of Capricorn, just before entering her current sign of Aquarius.

With respect to your question about the use of lots: I was taught to use this particular lot in this way in a horary. I don't typically use lots at all. The Part of Resignation and Dismissal has, to me, been very useful in job horaries, so I tend to use that one.

Hi Leo-Poet, thanks, I wasn't aware of looking at separating moon aspects when moon in another sign, though I recently in another chart was thinking of the last conjunction the moon made even if another sign.

It?s invaluable to hear others experience of casting horaries and patterns noted. I have only been looking at lots recently after listening to some of Ben Dyke's lectures on the topic. Most interesting but hadn't thought of applying them to horary.
Thanks again,
M

Deb wrote:In any case, the judgement would result in a similar theme. The main concern for me is that the 10th-ruler is afflicted (its conjunction with Saturn in the first suggesting that the job is wearing you down and affecting your health), and it is also about to enter combustion. In many similar questions I've often seen the 10th ruler or Moon about to undergo combustion at a time that someone has decided to walk away from a current job and begin a whole new chapter of their life professionally.

The job has been wearing me down for the last four years, the last one or two even moreso. The perk of lots of annual leave has merely been a way to manage my health in relation to stress/ fatigue.
It?s very useful to hear your experience re combustion? as that seemed to be a big red flag for me. Mercury describes my job very well. Jupiter describes the organisation rather well, slowing before going rx.. maybe to avoid heading into its detriment in virgo.

Deb wrote:The applying sextile from asc-ruler Mars to Saturn interests me, partly because of the mutual reception. Mars is strongly dignified and effectively committing its disposition to Saturn, which means that it can take control of the things that Saturn signifies. In this chart Saturn governs the third house, which is where the Moon is placed according to Regio division (by whole sign asc-ruler Mars is in the third so either way there appears to be some kind of connection with third house issues). I wonder if this is relevant to what you would really like to do if you were not feeling wearied by the job. Does this make sense to you? Are you contemplating study? The Moon is applying to the sextile of Venus in which is itself applying to Jupiter in the 9th.

Very much so. All this time I?ve been contemplating study, as well as travel/ moving city and also writing. Writing is top of my list ? so there is the third house influence. I have really wanted to start writing (starting with a blog) and very recently I suddenly had the urge to do a lot of letter writing!

Deb wrote: Overall I think this is a good time to think about making creative changes - I think you are caught in the trap of knowing you want to do something more creative, but feeling too exhausted by what you are doing to take the step - but note how Jupiter is dominating the ascendant. Think about what this mean to you - if you are tempted by the idea of voluntary redundancy there is nothing in this chart to suggest you would be foolish to follow that path (and lots to suggest the opposite).

Good luck

Definitely want to do something more creative but feeling too exhausted and put upon by the daily grind. There is lots to think about re Jupiter dominating. Coincidentally, I have a similar set up in my natal, Saturn conjunct the AC and Jupiter as the dominating planet.
Thanks again,
M