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The 9th house and the father, etc.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:44 am    Post subject: The 9th house and the father, etc. Reply with quote

Valens (II.16 in Pingree’s edition, transl. Riley p. 30) gives these significations for six of the places or houses (in addition to some of the lots and the midheaven):

The God (9th house): the father
The Goddess (3rd house): the mother

The Good Daimon (11th house): children
The Good Fortune (5th house): marriage

The Bad Daimon (12th house): diseases
The Bad Fortune (6th house): injuries

These are obviously related to the joys of the lights, the benefics and the malefics, respectively, and at least one of them – that of the 9th house for the father – seems to have survived the transmission into India. But is this list, or elements of it, found elsewhere in the Greek astrological corpus, or only in Valens?
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible that this father is actually the Godfather :hence the 1,5,9 relationaship

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6730-godfather
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think so, no. And I doubt Valens was Jewish. Smile
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
I don't think so, no. And I doubt Valens was Jewish. Smile


Shocked

Was there any Saudi arabia during Valens' time and how did the Greeks drive their cars without the oil Confused

I meant, if there was similar concept of Godfather during the older greek period as well.

Anyways,changing the subject completely :
Something got lost in translation somewhere.

Greeks use Saturn and Sun for the lot of father and when Saturn is combust by sun( ie the lot would't move much) they used two very different signifactors- Jupiter and mars.

Whereas, the arabs later only substituted Saturn with Jupiter and kept the sun as such.
Maybe, the Greek idea of lots was very different and hence also the whole concept of astrology was different.

Quote:



http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_fortune_e.htmLot of the Father
Day Lot = Asc. + Sa - Su
Night Lot = Asc. + Su - Sa

If Saturn is within 17 degrees of the Sun use this formula according to the Greek sources.

Day or Night Lot = Asc. + Ju - Ma

When Saturn is within 17 degrees of the Sun, Arabic sources used a different formula.

Day Lot = Asc. + Ju - Su
Night Lot = Asc. + Su - Ju

I don't know what happens if both Jupiter and Saturn are within 17 degrees of the Sun, but otherwise I prefer the Arabic formula when Saturn is close to the Sun.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No doubt many things have been lost, both in translation and otherwise. What interests me here, though, is something that apparently wasn't lost (at least not in the eastern transmission), namely, the idea of the 9th house signifying the father. I haven't seen it in other Greek sources than Valens, but I doubt he made it up.

As for the Arabs, I don't think their concept of astrology was fundamentally different from that of the Greeks. Arabic-language authors synthesized ideas derived from Persian, Byzantine, Syrian and Indian astrologers; but most of those ideas can be traced to Greek-language authors in the centuries around the beginning of the Common Era.
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Jupiterhead



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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, 9th house is your Father's DNA (5th from the Asc).

10th house is Father's everyday impact on you.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed you saying that on the other thread. I don't necessarily agree, but more importantly, this thread is not about our opinions but about classical texts: whether there are any, apart from Valens and the Indians, that support this particular signification.
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Jupiterhead



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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Martin, I only ever saw it referenced in Jaimini Upadesa Sutras and Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra.

I just rate the Sanskrit texts as superior, and feel that the later the texts, the more diluted they become - especially when it comes to what the houses are supposed to represent.
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Levente Laszlo



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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Martin,

this passage of Valens seems to be unique in Hellenistic, or say, Western astrological literature. The father is, however, universally associated with the Sun, which is in turn rejoices in the 9th place. A peculiar feature of this passage (which otherwise sounds genuine, at least two manuscripts of different branches agree in the text) is exactly that first it lists the topical places that are the joys of the planets: the 9th > the Sun > the father, the 3rd > the Moon > the mother, the 11th > Jupiter > children, the 5th > Venus > marriage, the 12th > Saturn > illnesses, the 6th > Mars > injuries, and finally the 1st > Mercury > life and wealth, which is also associated with the lot of fortune.

But I would be cautious to assume without hesitation that this very passage or its source/derived text was transmitted to India, since it may be due to independent development. Moreover, this passage can also be an interpolation as, although some parallels are found here and there, it doesn't really match with 2.4-15 (the chapters immediately preceding) or 4.12 (the description of the 12 places), and certain pieces of information, like this aforementioned association of the 9th place with the father, are used nowhere.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Levente. The passage in question may well have been interpolated into Valens' text (although internal consistency is not exactly Valens' signature feature!), but someone wrote it, in Greek, presumably quite early on.

An independent Indian development is of course possible, but offhand I can't think of any other instance of Indian authors reassigning a signification to a different place/house -- and the father is a major signification. The Indians typically stay quite close to the standard lists of correspondences that we know from Greek sources, although they naturally adapt them to the Indian cultural context. There would seem to be no cultural reason to reassign the father to the 9th rather than the 4th, so I do think it more likely that this stray doctrine somehow made it to India (while it was forgotten in the 'west').
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Indian astrology mother is the 4th and the father does not have to be the 7th from the 4th.

A Royal man's son from his mistress- he does not inherit fathers wealth, nor his titles.



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Levente Laszlo



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Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I agree that Valens is notoriously not consistent, so the passage can be genuine as well. Yet the Anthologies is apparently interpolated anyway.

I think the other important question is which the earliest Indian source for this idea is. I've checked the Yavanajātaka and Varāhamihira's Bṛhajjātaka, but I don't see it there. Do you have any ideas?
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Levente Laszlo wrote:
I think the other important question is which the earliest Indian source for this idea is. I've checked the Yavanajātaka and Varāhamihira's Bṛhajjātaka, but I don't see it there. Do you have any ideas?

I had the same idea, but haven't got further than checking the Yavanajātaka. I agree that it's a very important question.
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Fleur



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Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found that events concerning my father were utterly to do with my natal Sun. The transits were lasered on my Sun. And it is nowhere near the ninth house, or its "lord".

I try to keep an open mind, but haven't been convinced so far of any relevancy of planetary rulers of houses, lords or whatever, and also find that planets are far more significant than houses anyway.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
I found that events concerning my father were utterly to do with my natal Sun. The transits were lasered on my Sun. And it is nowhere near the ninth house, or its "lord".

I try to keep an open mind, but haven't been convinced so far of any relevancy of planetary rulers of houses, lords or whatever, and also find that planets are far more significant than houses anyway.


Brihat jataka- does not allot a house to mother or father.It gives 9th to Guru(perceptor).

From what I can read Yavanjataka too does not allot a specific house to mother/father. It does it by planets:

Quote:
35. The Sun is father by day, Saturn at night; the authorities say that Venus is mother by day, and the Moon is considered to be mother at night. This is always (true) ñ at conception, during pregnancy, and at birth.

36. One knows the characteristics belonging to the mother and father by means of such things as the good or bad places and aspects (of these planets), by means of the strength or weakness of their mutual configurations, and by means of their conditions, ages, complexions, and qualities.

37. One finds the distinguishing features of the father made clear in the odd signs, that of the mother in the even signs; the guru (of the native), with his caste and his family (jati), is to be established, night and day, from the position and configuration of Jupiter.


Quote:
121. Father, mother, brother, wife, relative, son, and slave of the natives; such are the natures (respectively) of the Sun, the Moon, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, Mercury, and Saturn.


Were there any Greek texts which did not give a house to any of the parents with native's relations being judged just by planets.


PD
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