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The 9th house and the father, etc.
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote
Quote:
Valens (II.16 in Pingree’s edition, transl. Riley p. 30) gives these significations for six of the places or houses [...]:
The God (9th house): the father
The Goddess (3rd house): the mother
These are obviously related to the joys of the lights, the benefics and the malefics, respectively, and at least one of them – that of the 9th house for the father – seems to have survived the transmission into India.

The 3rd seems also to have survived transmission (or been independently arrived at), in the ashtakavarga system taught by Krushna Jugalkani, learned, according to Krushna, from his guru Brij Gopal Shastri of Amravati. In Krushna's lesson on houses:
Quote:
NOTE: In standard Vedic, the mother is represented by the 4th house while in this system, the mother is represented by the 3rd house.

In this system, father and guru are both read from the 9th.
(see http://www.kas-astrology.com )
Graham
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Zagata



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Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everyone,

In terms of Jyotish, here is what James Braha says in his book: "The Art and Practice of Ancient Hindu Astrology", page 3:

"For example, being from North India, Padia had never even heard of the concept that the 9th house represents the father. He had not lived in Southern India where astrologers take the 9th house as the father, because in South India fathers act as gurus to their children and gurus are governed by the 9th house. Padia was taught that the 10th house represents the father".

Padia was one of James Braha's Jyoitsh teachers.

This principle of the corresponding significations of a house is present in Ancient Western Astrology. For instance, I can't remember in which audio lecture/interview of Ben Dykes, but I heard him say that Al Kindi in his book "40 chapters" says that the 3rd shows not only siblings but people who are like our brothers or sisters. Likewise for the 4th and the father and fatherly figures. Therefore the father being shown by the 9th, at least in South India, makes perfect sense to me, because it is reflected in the local culture.

Other than that, in regards to the father, I can't imagine using anything but the 4th or better the Lot of the Father.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The talk about Indian astrology leads to the complicated issue of transmission and that too one way transmission.So let us just leave it aside.

The question is if the greek texts have always allotted a house to the parents .
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
An independent Indian development is of course possible, but offhand I can't think of any other instance of Indian authors reassigning a signification to a different place/house -- and the father is a major signification. The Indians typically stay quite close to the standard lists of correspondences that we know from Greek sources, although they naturally adapt them to the Indian cultural context.


While such examples may not be common there do seem to be some differences from standard hellenistic house meanings in Indian house meanings. For example:

Second House

Uniquely, in Indian astrology this is considered a killing place. We could use Valens logic and argue that the house opposing the other takes on qualities of that house ie the 8th. However, the Indians dont rationalise this house association in that way and give an idiosyncratic understanding of the logic of the 2nd house link to death.

Varahamihira also associates this house with family.

Fifth House

From an early stage this house is linked to intelligence, and wisdom in Indian astrology. For example Varahamihira cites 'intelligence' as an association of the 5th in a very short list of house meanings in the Brihat Jataka. In contemporary Indian astrology this often extends to further education.

I am not familiar with such associations in hellenistic astrology. However, this isn't that different from the notion in modern western astrology that the 5th relates to the capacity to be creative on the mental as well as physical level. Indian astrologers today often link the term Buddhi to the 5th. There is emphasis on the 5th for things like writing , books, libraries etc rather than the 3rd of modern astrology.

To be fair the Indians dont seem to have exactly 'reassigned' hellenistic associations any more than the Perso-Arabs did. Rather they seem to have applied a different astrological solution to fit such mercurial type associations to particular houses since these were often unclear or missing in the earlier tradition. The Perso-Arabic and later western medieval tradition seems to have applied such gaps in hellenistic astrology increasingly to the 3rd house while the Indians seem to put more emphasis on the 5th house.

Actually, Varahamihira links education to the 4th house but I am not clear if many Indian astrologers followed that idea.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:20 am; edited 6 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i love it when different people come to different conclusions and it is captured in the history.. makes a mockery of those purists who would like everything nailed down definitively.
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Quote:
Uniquely, in Indian astrology [the 2nd] is considered a killing place. We could use Valens logic and argue that the house opposing the other takes on qualities of that house ie the 8th. However, the Indians dont rationalise this house association in that way and give an idiosyncratic understanding of the logic of the 2nd house link to death.

I think this is because the 3rd is considered to represent longevity and vigour, having somewhat martial qualities (amongst other things). So the 2nd is the 12th from the 3rd.
I wonder (this is just me, unsupported) if there could be some association with the "last part of the night", when more deaths do occur, statistically.
Richard Houck (coming to Indian from Western) claimed that, empirically, the 2nd and its ruler were the most reliable indicators of death (The Astrology of Death).
Graham
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham wrote:
Quote:
I wonder (this is just me, unsupported) if there could be some association with the "last part of the night", when more deaths do occur, statistically.


Certainly this is the 'last part of the night' before sunrise. In hellenistic astrology the second house is known as the 'Idle place' or ''The Gate of Hades''. This could very well be a reflection of the fact that this house is the exit point for the Sun on its way out of the underworld that begins when the Sun enters the setting place.

Curtis Manwaring explores this and a few other ideas in this piece comparing the hellenistic and Indian understanding of the 2nd house:

http://wwwastrology-x-files.com/houses/gate-of-hades.html
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Graham F



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Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for link, which was missing a dot
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/houses/gate-of-hades.html
Graham
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just an addendum that my earlier references to Varahamihira on the house meanings were inaccurate. I had been relying on an electronic version of the Brihat Jataka translated by N.C.Aiyar (1905). Its quite a pig of a translation to follow at times and I seem to have confused Aiyar's notes for the body of the text. Having cross referenced the text with another translation I see Varahmihira's discussion of house meanings is exceptionally terse and limited to one word descriptions.

Its obviously a much later text than the Brihat Jataka but I thought I would quote the house meanings from the the Phaladeepika of Mantreswara which seems to date from around the 16th century.

Quote:
In a birth chart there are twelve houses. Each house has been given several names indicating the various subjects it deals with.] The names by which the first house or the Ascendant is known are Lagna, Hora, Kalya, Deha, Udaya, Rupa, Seersha, Vartmana (present) and Janma.

The second house deals with Vitta (wealth), Vidya (learning). Swa, Annapana (riches, food and drinks), Bhukti (eating), the right eye, face (Asya), letter or document (Patrika), Speech (Vak) and Kutumba (family) and thus adopts these appellations.

The names given (or the subjects allotted) to third house are Duschikya, Uras (breast), the right ear, army valour, prowess and brother.

The subjects or designations for the fourth house are house, land, maternal uncle, a sister's son, a relation, a friend, conveyance, mother, kingdom, cow, buffalo, perfume, clothes, ornaments, the nadir, hibuka, sukha (happiness), water, bridge and river.

The fifth house deals with (and has designations accordingly) the mark of the sovereign, taxes, soul, intelligence, knowledge of the future, life, progeny, belly, Vedic knowledge and other religious scriptures.

The sixth house deals with debts, arms, thieves, wounds, diseases, enemies, paternal relations, battle, wicked acts, sins, fear and humilialtion.

The subjects dealt with by the seventh house are desire, passion, setting, sexual desire, a way, people, husband road and wife.

For the eighth house subjects allotted are Mangalya (the living of the husband during the life time of the wife), Randhra, filthiness, mental pain, defeat or humiliation, longevity, sorrow, blame, death, impurity impediments and slavery.

The ninth house deals with preceptor (guru), deity (devta), father,auspiciousness, poorvabhagya (previous luck), worship, penance, virtuous act or virtue, grand son, and noble family.

Translator note: Some of the learneds in the North are of the view that all about father should be examined from the 10th house, because 10th is 7th to the 4th house dealing with the father. The view of Phaladeepika seems to be based on the logic that the 9th being 5th to 5th house (dealing with progeny) should be the most appropriate house to be connected with father).

The subjects (names) designated for the 10th house are business or trade, ranker position, honour, occupation, profession, sky or zenith, conduct, quality, inclination, gait, command and Meshurana (to give orders).

The matters to be considered from the eleventh house are gains, income, acquisition, receipt of wealth, accomplishment, splendor and prosperity, profits, veneration, elder brother or sister, left ear, anything juicy, delightful news.

The expressions used for the twelfth house are misery, leg, left eye, loss, spy, last rites, poverty, sins, bad expenditure and imprisonment or confinement.

The PHALADEEPIKA by MANTRESWARA, Chapter 1, sections 10-16
English Translation, Commentary and annotation by Dr. G. S. Kapoor



As Mantreswara seems to have been based in south India could linkage of the 9th with father represent the survival of an older tradition in that part of India? Clearly, north India came under much more influence from Perso-Arabic ideas from the middle ages.

The problem as has already pointed out by others here is that the most ancient texts available to us such as the The Yavanajataka of Sphujidhvaja Varahamihira's Brihat Jataka dont really substantiate this view. Its interesting that both these texts rely heavily on natural planetary significators for both parents. This tradition never dies out in Indian astrology.

So the question remains, is the designation of the 9th for Father an indigenous development in India that occurred quite separately from what Valens appears to suggest?

I guess we need to check out more texts!

Mark
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waybread



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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin, as you know, Valens was a self-described compiler (Riley transl.,p. 66). Different sections of his work give different information.

On p. 28 of the Riley translation, I don't see parents-- which VV does give as you indicate in Round Two on p. 30.We get another rendition in book 9 (p.153) which includes a turned (derived) house method. Here he calls the 4th house the "place of parents." In some charts he set the Part of Fortune equal to the ascendant, and then numbered the houses in sequence after it.

I calculated some of Valens's horoscopes, using a modification of Neugebauer and Van Hoesen's Greek Horoscopes data. I couldn't get the charts to work out unless I used whole signs but in book V (p. 105) VV was clearly aware of unequal house horoscopes. And-- by a close reading of Valens's horoscope delineations, you can see the more nuanced meanings that he assigned to the houses.

For example in p. 105, we get the turned 9th house as indicating foreign travel. On p. 29, he says of the 5th house, "many theorems."

I guess the question is whether you are looking for particular delineations in Valens, or whether you want an overall view of him as an author and astrologer.

(to be continued)
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waybread



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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin, you asked in your OP, "is this list, or elements of it, found elsewhere in the Greek astrological corpus, or only in Valens?"

Certainly elements of this list are found in Hellenistic astrology and in demotic (Greek-influenced Egyptian) horoscopes found in archaeological records.

From Otto Neugebauer, 1943. "Demotic Horoscopes," J. of the American Oriental Society 63: 115-127. (Summarized in Robert Powell, 1996 "History of the Houses," if you've got a copy of that.)

His dating is somewhat opaque (to me) since he has to juggle different calender systems extant at the time, but he has 4 horoscopes dated to the first half of the first century CE. I can go into the house names in more detail if you are interested, but most seem simply to refer to their position in the chart (like left or east) and the Duat (Egyptian afterlife) and Lake of the Sky (MC, 10th house,) but 3 houses refer to the second as "the house of provision of life.)

Ostracon #3 (18 CE), however, adds to this list (where "part" indicates house):

1. (ascendant)
2. "house of provision of life"
3. "the part of the brother"
4. "the part of the father"
5. """ the child"
6. (unknown)
7. "the part of the fate"
8. "the house of provision of death"
9. "the part of god"
10. "the house of the goddess"
11. "Psais" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shai essentially "good daemon"
12. "The evil spirit"

The Wikipedia link gives some of the history of the Egyptian god Shai (Psais in Greek,) who initially personified fate, then came to mean good fortune.

The origin of houses was probably in Hellenized Egypt: a good source is Greenbaum and Ross, 2010, "The Role of Egypt in the Development of the Horoscope". http://www.academia.edu/7370462/The_Role_of_Egypt_in_the_Development_of_the_Horoscope

So far as I can determine, there was a lot of variety in the meanings of different houses as they initially developed.

"God" for the 9th also appears in Manilius (1st century AD, the Latin poet)who has the first literary reference to houses, so far as I know. He gives:

1. "horoscope",life, character, childhood, station in life
2. Typhon (Evil weather spirit, whence our term "typhoon.")
3. Brothers, the moon, goddess
4. wealth from underground sources, fathers, elderly
5. uncertainty, "Daemonie", health, warfare
6. misery, hard work
7. End of life and events, "portal of [god] Pluto"
8. Typhon
9. God
10. honours, power fame, marriage
11. hope, good fortune
12. misery, toil

Dorotheus (ca. 25-75 CE, I've got the Pingree translation,) has a lot on houses, but you kind of have to read his planets-in-houses to see how he interprets them. Also, he was heavily glossed by a Muslim translator. He lists the strength of houses (angularity, &c.) The house of the fathers here is also the 4th.

Of course, Ptolemy had hardly any use for houses, and doesn't even mention most of them.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
Martin, you asked in your OP, "is this list, or elements of it, found elsewhere in the Greek astrological corpus, or only in Valens?"
........

The origin of houses was probably in Hellenized Egypt: a good source is Greenbaum and Ross, 2010, "The Role of Egypt in the Development of the Horoscope". http://www.academia.edu/7370462/The_Role_of_Egypt_in_the_Development_of_the_Horoscope

So far as I can determine, there was a lot of variety in the meanings of different houses as they initially developed.

"God" for the 9th also appears in Manilius (1st century AD, the Latin poet)who has the first literary reference to houses, so far as I know. He gives:

1. "horoscope",life, character, childhood, station in life
2. Typhon (Evil weather spirit, whence our term "typhoon.")
3. Brothers, the moon, goddess
4. wealth from underground sources, fathers, elderly
5. uncertainty, "Daemonie", health, warfare
6. misery, hard work
7. End of life and events, "portal of [god] Pluto"
8. Typhon
9. God
10. honours, power fame, marriage
11. hope, good fortune
12. misery, toil

Dorotheus (ca. 25-75 CE, I've got the Pingree translation,) has a lot on houses, but you kind of have to read his planets-in-houses to see how he interprets them. Also, he was heavily glossed by a Muslim translator. He lists the strength of houses (angularity, &c.) The house of the fathers here is also the 4th.

Of course, Ptolemy had hardly any use for houses, and doesn't even mention most of them.


I have highlighted the interesting bits.
Elsewhere someone asked about the 2nd and 7th houses being Maraka houses(Killing houses) in Indian Astrology.

Manilus gives it away.
Alexander invaded India in 326 BC and Seleucus was only defeated by the Mauryans in 303 BC.The whole of Northern part of India at that time was under Greek influence. To look for Indian and Greek correspondences it is the Manilus or those who proceeded him will be much more informative.
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