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Paul - ancients using sidereal?
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1153
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Quote:
So when we measure something sidereally we cannot be sure if when we derive astrological meaning if we're deriving it from the stars themselves or something we're using those star positions to in turn calculate, like the cardinal points or something derived from them.

This is true. We really don't understand the mechanics of influence that seem to be reflected in signs of the zodiac. I've said that I accept that there are rhythms that originate at the equinox and solstice points. I've suggested in a past article on my web site that the astrological zodiac itself may be a construct linked to the stars, but equinotical-solstice rhythms may align with certain other manifesting energies.

I prefer not to align these rhythms to signs of the zodiac, however, which brings up the southern hemisphere problem. But if zodiac signs are not involved, then there can be seasonal rhythms with opposite meanings at the same time in the northern and southern hemispheres: The quieter energies of fall in the north while the south is experiencing the vitalizing energies of spring. No zodiac, no problem!
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1153
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Quote:
What Hand means is that Ptolemy doesn't refer to the four triplicities as 'fire, earth, air and water', but rather as the Aries-triplicity, Libra triplicities, etc; the elemental principles are still there. Valens is the oldest source I know of to include those labels, but even in his text the references are very oblique - they are not directly made as they are in later texts. I'm not sure what this is supposed to be an example of though.

Deb, my best reply is to quote from the article on my web site that was published in the NCGR Memberletter in 2013 (Ancient Triplicities: Key to the Sidereal Zodiac):

--------Begin quote----------
In addition to triplicity lords, Vettius Valens (2nd century C.E.) was the first astrologer to connect elements to the triangles. But in western astrology these have been changed from the Stoic elements where each element had only one quality (hot, cold, wet, dry) to Aristotleís system which gives a mix of two qualities to each element. This system is entrenched in western tropical astrology, but there is now a serious question as to whether this element assignment may be in error. In his commentary on Book 1 of Ptolemyís Tetribiblos, Rob Hand writes:

"The text does appear to be saying that Hot = Masculine, Wet = Feminine, Dry = Masculine, Cold = Feminine. If Ptolemy is completely in accord with standard Aristotelianism in which Hot and Cold are both active whereas Wet and Dry are both passive, then Ptolemy here classifies Hot = Active & Masculine, Cold = Active & Feminine, Wet = Passive & Feminine and Dry = Passive and Masculine. If this analysis is correct it has all manner of interesting symbolic consequences for astrology."
[Robert Hand, commentary in Claudius Ptolemyís Tetrabiblos, Book 1 (Robert Schmidt, translator), Golden Hind Press, 1994, p. 17.]

Taking a hint from Rob Handís commentary, a workable sidereal perspective links Aristotle's basic four qualities to the triplicities. However, Aristotleís four qualities of hot, cold, wet and dry have nothing to do with weather, temperature or seasons. They are psychological in nature.

-----End quote from article------ http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/aatriplicities2013.htm
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I disagree Therese to several of those particular points for various reasons, but to pursue this we'd go off the focus of this thread. (That the humoral qualities are derived from seasonal effects is evident in Ptolemy's expression of Hippocratic principles, where the association with weather, season and climate is much more apparent).

More relevant - in relation to your previous post addressed to Paul - it might interest you to know that although I don't share your perspective personally, I do have a lot of respect for astrologers who prefer to remove the seasonal association of the signs with the intention of working with a more "universal system". Ptolemy, in fact, gives support for this concept indirectly, in telling us that should the zodiac not be started from the vernal point it would be necessary to exclude certain features of the noted sign characteristics otherwise it would lead to error. I will give the Ashmand interpretation of this point, although best understanding (I think) comes from a combination of translations made by Ashmand, Robbins and Schmidt.

Quote:
The beginnings of the signs, and likewise those of the terms, are to be taken from the equinoctial and tropical points. This rule is not only clearly stated by writers on the subject, but is also especially evident by the demonstration constantly afforded, that their natures, influences and familiarities have no other origin than from the tropics and equinoxes, as has been already plainly shown. And, if other beginnings were allowed, it would either be necessary to exclude the natures of the signs from the theory of prognostication, or impossible to avoid error in then retaining and making use of them ... (Ashmand I.25 Robbins and Schmidt, I.22)


The way I understand this comment, is that Ptolemy sees no theoretical reason why the zodiac cannot commence from any point, providing the elements that relate to seasonal correspondence are removed from it.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Quote:
Well I disagree Therese to several of those particular points for various reasons, but to pursue this we'd go off the focus of this thread. (That the humoral qualities are derived from seasonal effects is evident in Ptolemy's expression of Hippocratic principles, where the association with weather, season and climate is much more apparent).

Deb, I didn't reference humoral qualities and seasonal effects, but these seem to be quite logical, but would be opposite in the hemispheres as marked from the equinoxes and solstices.

I donít think this is a matter of agreement or disagreement. There seems to be some confusion here between the four basic qualities in my article (hot, cold, wet and dry) and the four elements. You seem to be suggesting that Aristotle associated the four elements (fire, earth, air and water) with the humors. (I may be misunderstanding you here.) But I didnít find this when I did the research for my article. Apparently the linking of the humors with elements occurred after Aristotle, and this development has made itís way into tropical astrology. As astrologers we are forced to rely on academic sources. Here is a quote from a site on Greek medicine:

"Aristotle's most important contribution to the theory of Greek Medicine was his doctrine of the Four Basic Qualities Hot, Cold, Wet, and Dry. Later philosopher-physicians would apply these qualities to characterize the Four Elements, Four Humors, and Four Temperaments. The Four Basic Qualities are the foundations for all notions of balance and homeostasis in Greek Medicine."
http//www.greekmedicine.net/whos_who/Aristotle.html

So Aristotle's four basic qualities are hot, cold, wet and dry, and itís these that I suggest can help to explain the foundation of the sidereal trigons.

Then later philosopher-physicians linked the four elements to the humors and temperaments, and tropical astrology has incorporated these into its sign trigons. These don't transfer to the sidereal zodiac just as the four qualities can't be transferred to the tropical zodiac. We can see, however, that the tropical elements don't follow Aristotle's pattern where Fire is opposite Water and Air is opposite Earth.

In the sidereal zodiac the four qualities are in correct opposition to each other. (hot-cold and wet-dry) Aristotle's elements are made up of combinations of the four qualities, so these have very different meanings than the basic qualities themselves.




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