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I thought some of you might be interested in a system of astrological associations for the Tarot listed by Anthony Louis in his book The Tarot: Plain and Simple.

In particular he lists a system of associations which he states are popular in South American Tarot. I have listed the changes to the system most popular in English speaking countries in brackets which is a modified Golden Dawn system incorporating the 3 outer planets rather than the 3 elements proposed by The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn itself (ie Mathers/Waite).

0 The Fool -Neptune (rather than Uranus)
1 The Magician -Taurus (rather than Mercury)
2 The High priestess -Cancer (rather than the Moon)
3 The Empress - Venus
4 The Emperor -Jupiter (rather than Aries)
5 The Hierophant -Leo (rather than Taurus)
6 The Lovers -Gemini
7 The Chariot -Capricorn (rather than Cancer)
8 Strength -Mars (rather than Leo)
9 The Hermit -Saturn (rather than Virgo)
10 The Wheel of Fortune -Sagittarius (rather than Jupiter)
11 Justice -Libra
12 The Hanged Man -Pisces (rather than Neptune)
13 Death -Pluto (rather than Scorpio)
14 Temperance -Aquarius (rather than Sagittarius)
15 The Devil -Scorpio (rather than Capricorn)
16 The Tower -Uranus (rather than Mars)
17 The Star -Virgo (rather than Aquarius)
18 The Moon -The Moon (rather than Pisces)
19 The Sun -The Sun
20 Judgement -Mercury (rather than Pluto)
21 The World -Aries (rather than Saturn)

There is clearly the odd uncomfortable fit here. For example The Magician=Taurus? But the difficulties are no greater than the Golden Dawn system itself which has incongruities with the associations for numerous cards. It was my inability to accept the Golden Dawn system as workable that led me to design my own system. I think several astrologers have done the same.

In my case I decided that since the Tarot is really a product of renaissance Italy the astrological associations should fit into a renaissance astrological world view. Hence I only use the seven visible planets of that period. In several cases I see the symbolism of the Major Arcana cards reflecting the planetary energy of more than one planet in a card.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Mark wrote:

0 The Fool -Neptune (rather than Uranus)
1 The Magician -Taurus (rather than Mercury)
2 The High priestess -Cancer (rather than the Moon)
3 The Empress - Venus
4 The Emperor -Jupiter (rather than Aries)
5 The Hierophant -Leo (rather than Taurus)
6 The Lovers -Gemini
7 The Chariot -Capricorn (rather than Cancer)
8 Strength -Mars (rather than Leo)
9 The Hermit -Saturn (rather than Virgo)
10 The Wheel of Fortune -Sagittarius (rather than Jupiter)
11 Justice -Libra
12 The Hanged Man -Pisces (rather than Neptune)
13 Death -Pluto (rather than Scorpio)
14 Temperance -Aquarius (rather than Sagittarius)
15 The Devil -Scorpio (rather than Capricorn)
16 The Tower -Uranus (rather than Mars)
17 The Star -Virgo (rather than Aquarius)
18 The Moon -The Moon (rather than Pisces)
19 The Sun -The Sun
20 Judgement -Mercury (rather than Pluto)
21 The World -Aries (rather than Saturn)
I did see a link between the sequence of Tarot cards and twentieth century history up until now.

I am unsure further back than 9 The Hermit, which I link with the poverty and recession of the 1930's, which was also a time of great scientific discoveries and insights. 10 The Wheel of Fortune reminds me of the Nazi swastika, and the poem Der Wasserrad (The Water Wheel) by Bertholt Brecht, which is about the rise and fall of power. I read it years ago and can't remember exactly where it came from, probably one of his plays. Brecht is talking about the Nazis. Hitler took power in 1932, and the economy of western nations took an upward turn, in Germany, America and elsewhere. 11 Justice could be the aftermath of the second world war, and the way power and wealth were redistributed, free healthcare and a welfare state. 12 The Hanged Man so much represents the hippy philosophy of the sixties, a reversal of material values for the spiritual, and also if you look at a long term chart of the Dow Jones Industrial Average, it turned sideways to down from 1966 to 1982. 13 Death, the urban decay of the end of this downward economic turn, musically reflected in bands like the Cure, Joy Division and other dark, gothic sounds, which all started around 1978. Death comes before a new dawn, and 14 Temperance or the Angel of Time reflects the start of a new economic boom in the early 1980's, August 1982 shows on the Dow chart as the low. This is a beautiful spiritual card, but the boom turned into materialism and the rise of the yuppie, seen in 15 The Devil. 16 The Lightening Struck Tower might represent the economic effect of the 1987 Dow crash and its aftermath, a fall in house prices, and the worst storm the UK has ever seen that ripped up trees. 17 The Star, where the economy began to pick up again in the early 1990's, and 18 The Moon where this became materialistic in the mid 1990's. The Moon card also looks like the Twin Towers, which was a horrific event.

Not sure where we are now, probably somewhere between Judgement and The World. I don't know history enough to be able to go back in time further than The Hermit. Obviously events like the 1920's economic boom and the ascent of the motor car and Henry Ford are going to link with cards like The Chariot. The First World War might have something to do with The Lovers, which I have also heard called The Twins (Edwin Steinbrecher?), and I would have to do a proper meditation/scrying on it to really delve the meaning of that card. Thoughts on that, which are never as good as skryed visual images, ideas like Gemini, The Twins being one immortal and one mortal twin. The Empress sounds like it could be Queen Victoria, obviously with a lot of other connected meanings. Maybe The Magician represents something to do with the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, which was near the beginning of a major economic wave. One tangential thought on The Magician is King George IV, who reigned at the beginning of this big economic wave, and was head of the Freemasons, magicians. His Royal Pavilion is full of serpents and dragons and other Freemasons' magical symbols. Does The Magician hold serpents? I don't possess a tarot pack any more.

The socio-economist Robert Prechter produced a long wave chart showing a beginning around the end of the 1700's, which was the start of the Industrial Revolution. He used an amalgamation of the Dow and British stock prices. He labelled various important historical events linked to this long wave chart. I think maybe the current tarot sequence started when that wave started.

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Thanks Fleur,

I must say despite my interest in mundane astrology and Tarot I had never thought of combining Tarot into time cycles before. Full marks for originality! It just goes to show how flexible this symbolism can be.

Originally the Tarot cards had no set numerical order. Different traditions of the cards sequence actually evolved.

According to the Tarot historian Michael Dummett in 15th century Renaissance Italy there were three separate traditions of tarot card sequences originating from the cities of Milan, Ferrara and Bologna. These are the three locations that the earliest records of Tarot can be sourced.

According to Michael Dummett
The cards whose positions in the sequence vary the most are three virtues of Temperance, Fortitude, and Justice. Apart from these the only important variation concerns the highest trump, which is sometimes the Angel (Judgement) and sometimes the World .....Finally, the sequence ends with The Pope, The Emperor , The Popess , The Empress and the bagatto (The Fool). The only variation among these involves the position of the Popess, which may be above The Emperor or below The Empress. The Visconti-Sforza Tarot Cards, 1986
It was the tradition of Tarot from Milan that was exported to France so that this is the sequence tradition that has spread across Europe and later the world.

Dummett's research uncovering the existence of these rival traditions in the early Tarot sequence rather makes a mockery of the later heated discussions between occultists on the ''correct'' sequence of where individual Tarot cards belonged according to the Kabbalah.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

Astrological Associations of the Tarot by Golden Dawn?

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Mark:

I enjoyed this thread while it had life in it. I was wondering what your feelings are, now that you have studied texts by Michael Dummet, Paul Huson and others, on astrological associations made to the tarot cards.

My own conclusion is that they are all arbitrary and that whoever invented the tarot had no comprehensive set of correspondences in mind. But if anyone has evidence to the contrary, I would be willing to hear it. For in truth, I would like there to be a correspondence between astrology and the tarot. It is just that I have never found a method that holds up to scrutiny.

Melissa

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Delaforge wrote:
I enjoyed this thread while it had life in it. I was wondering what your feelings are, now that you have studied texts by Michael Dummet, Paul Huson and others, on astrological associations made to the tarot cards.
I wouldn't state I had yet concluded all relevant research on this subject by any means. Its a vast subject and hasty conclusions are not advisable in my view. But I guess I do possess a better perspective on the historical context of this topic than when I started the thread.

Delaforge wrote:
My own conclusion is that they are all arbitrary and that whoever invented the tarot had no comprehensive set of correspondences in mind.
Yes I agree. I think all the historical evidence I have viewed to date supports this conclusion. The same argument no doubt applies to other systems combined with Tarot like Kabbalah and Numerology. All of these symbolic systems can be combined harmoniously with Tarot but it can also exist quite happily without them.

Delaforge wrote:
I would like there to be a correspondence between astrology and the tarot. It is just that I have never found a method that holds up to scrutiny.
I agree on both counts. Which is why I am developing my own system! I think the Golden Dawn approach to the Majors was a decent attempt but it simply falls flat on several cards. You dont need to be that tarot and astrology literate to realise that. I was going to reply to Michael Sternbach rationalisations for Golden Dawn astrological associations here.

I did prepare a very extensive reply running through all the Major Arcana cards. However, on balance I have decided to keep my ideas to myself for now and work through my ideas more thoroughly before presenting them in public.

A friend of mine who is an experienced Tarot reader has suggested I write a book on my approach. I am really not sure I have enough for that or have sufficient knowledge to warrant that yet. Still, I may put out an article on this sometime.

I suspect even more than astrology tarot is a very subjective thing. We have the same issue in astrology in that what appeals to one person (e.g, zodiac, rulerships, house systems etc) may be quite unattractive to another. Its even more the case in tarot I think. So the idea of a universal astrological association system for tarot that suits everyone is probably unrealistic. For example, I prefer to avoid outer planets but others may feel that is essential for them.

Similarly, I take a lot of inspiration from the renaissance images of the cards. I imagine many people form their associations based on Golden Dawn imagery. But the Waite-Smith and later Thoth deck presuppose certain astrological assumptions in their design that correspondingly morphed the traditional imagery of the cards. The subsequent avalanche of Waite-Smith clone decks tend to follow the same logic.

I am very grateful to all the participants in this thread as they have really expanded my knowledge in this area and helped me think through the topic for myself.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

Re: Astrological Associations of the Tarot by Golden Dawn?

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delaforge wrote:For in truth, I would like there to be a correspondence between astrology and the tarot. It is just that I have never found a method that holds up to scrutiny.
Hi Delaforge

I'm only really reading these posts now, but I have to say that having used both Tarot and Astrology that I have found one to compliment the other more often than not. This is especially true with regards the timing of a thing, which, when I did Tarot (I have slowly stopped altogether in recent years), I would narrow down time frames and using the cards and then move to a chart and look at transits and so on of that time period to find where things overlapped and correlated and more often than not find similar reflections of themes as was showing up in the cards. In fact it's partially for this overlap that I slowly abandoned the cards (which for me were more draining to do a reading with than astrology is).

That said, I don't necessarily buy into a direct Card = Sign, or Card = Planet system. Clearly, to me, people interested in several archaic disciplines sought to overlap imagery or ideas so as to make it easier to comprehend. In Dion Fortune's Mysitic Qabalah she elaborates in this typical style in conjuring the idea of a system of correspondences in which, to use modern speech, certain archetypes were depicted in several ways, whether astrological, tarot, kaballah or whatever else. I personally don't find this direct relationship between one and the other as clear cut as this, and, in the end, found I had the most success when I just abandoned what others said on this and went my own way and related cards with astrology as I myself saw fit, and actually, when it comes to the Tarot, and putting asides concerns of the historicity of these things, I believe in terms of accuracy, this works best. But this isn't to say the history of these things isn't interesting of course.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

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Mark wrote:Delaforge wrote:
My own conclusion is that they are all arbitrary and that whoever invented the tarot had no comprehensive set of correspondences in mind.
Yes I agree. I think all the historical evidence I have viewed to date supports this conclusion. The same argument no doubt applies to other systems combined with Tarot like Kabbalah and Numerology. All of these symbolic systems can be combined harmoniously with Tarot but it can also exist quite happily without them.
Personally, I think time spent studying the tarot as 'a thing in itself' before comparing it with other symbolic systems is time well spent.
Mark wrote: ... I take a lot of inspiration from the renaissance images of the cards. I imagine many people form their associations based on Golden Dawn imagery. But the Waite-Smith and later Thoth deck presuppose certain astrological assumptions in their design that correspondingly morphed the traditional imagery of the cards. The subsequent avalanche of Waite-Smith clone decks tend to follow the same logic.
Indeed. Both the Waite-Smith Trumps (and those of the B.O.T.A. deck that strongly resemble the W-S designs) and the entire Thoth deck are firmly rooted in Golden Dawn tradition. Consequently, GD teaching has influenced, albeit at almost a subconscious level, the interpretation of tarot cards, a trend that began to show its face in the 1960s.

It is instructive to trace changes to the meanings of certain cards over the decades. To take a notable example, The Pope (Hierophant, High Priest), in the time between Etteilla and Papus, represented Marriage (in an era where it was normal to be married by a priest), Religion and Law (insofar as Right/Justice underlies the concept of a legal system). In an age when priests were looked up to and seen as authority figures, Trump 5 also indicated "Benefit bestowed; assistance to one's projects; intervention [often through the means of] good counsel [i.e. the inquirer will receive or should be advised to seek out good counsel]." I quote from the chapter on the tarot in Minetta's book on Card Reading. Crowley gives as one of the card's meanings: "help from superiors."

Esoterically, the card stood for Inspiration, the descent of an idea from God or the Divine mind into a human mind (something the GD associate with Trump 6).

Although the Pope represented Religion, it was not a symbol of 'conventional' or 'established religion'. Nor did it stand for conventionality or the establishment. Those associations came later once the GD correspondence of the card with Taurus had taken hold. Thus have the supposed astrological correspondences affected the cards' divinatory meanings.

Melissa

Re: Astrological Associations of the Tarot by Golden Dawn?

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Paul wrote:... I don't necessarily buy into a direct Card = Sign, or Card = Planet system. Clearly, to me, people interested in several archaic disciplines sought to overlap imagery or ideas so as to make it easier to comprehend. In Dion Fortune's Mysitic Qabalah she elaborates in this typical style in conjuring the idea of a system of correspondences in which, to use modern speech, certain archetypes were depicted in several ways, whether astrological, tarot, kaballah or whatever else. I personally don't find this direct relationship between one and the other as clear cut as this ...
Exactly my view. And also the view taken by the occultist Murry Hope. You have put it very well. Though who, besides myself, will agree with you remains to be seen.

Melissa

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delaforge wrote: .....
Although the Pope represented Religion, it was not a symbol of 'conventional' or 'established religion'. Nor did it stand for conventionality or the establishment. Those associations came later once the GD correspondence of the card with Taurus had taken hold. Thus have the supposed astrological correspondences affected the cards' divinatory meanings.

Melissa
Pope Joan???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan

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Delaforge wrote:
Although the Pope represented Religion, it was not a symbol of 'conventional' or 'established religion'. Nor did it stand for conventionality or the establishment. Those associations came later once the GD correspondence of the card with Taurus had taken hold. Thus have the supposed astrological correspondences affected the cards' divinatory meanings.
Really? Interesting. What sources led you to that conclusion?

I am currently looking into obtaining some books on the French tradition of Tarot De Marseilles interpretation ( such as Paul Marteau's book Le Tarot de Marseille ) which have been unaffected by the Anglo-American GD interpretations and associations. Although admitedly, Marteau's book only dates back to the 1930's. Still, I find it refreshing to have access to any interpretations not pre-conditioned by Golden Dawn thinking.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly