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Notes on the nativity and death of Jean Baptiste Morin
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In zodiaco is a slightly ambiguous term. To clarify, Morin didn't use any sort of 'mundane aspects' (nor did anyone else, practically speaking, prior to Placidus), but he did advocate directions with latitude and had his own system of assigning latitude to aspect points.

Morin used house cusps as significators, and he used aspects in the zodiac (mostly with latitude), but there is no necessary connection between the two. In fact, Placidus accepted only mundane aspects to the angles (and other cusps; but all major aspects to the intermediary cusps can also be defined as aspects to the angles, so they needn't be listed separately).
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks graham and wolfgang - for sharing the picture.

it has only dawned on me over the course of the thread that deb's focus is to see what morin saw. that is a more specific focus then looking at the astrology at work at the time or more generally. the rumour that he knew of his death may be true or not, but the story given sounds embellished and possibly made up to my ears.
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is true, and to be honest it has only occurred to me over the course of the thread that others would want to pursue a different perspective; and to understand the reasons why you would Smile

Once - years ago - I stood in a dinner time queue at an astrological conference, and overheard two astrologers talk about Lilly's work, with suggestions that he would only have published his charts that worked out, and buried the ones that didn't. With true sincerity I asked them why they didn't believe that he just illustrated some of his case files; that horary actually does work, and there wasn't any attempt to dupe anyone in that text? It is beyond me, because I do know that astrology works, and horary works too - so why are astrologers disbelievers that astrology actually works, just as the sceptics are? We have already seen enough good reasons to know that the significations for Morin's death for this year were very strong. Hence I don't doubt that Morin would have seen them too. This is different from supposing that at the age of 23 he knew he would die at the age of 73. But when he was 73, and saw the revolution, saw the primary directions, saw the configurations of transits that hit in early November, surely it was as obvious to him as it is to us now in hindsight?

But I do agree the story sounds embellished James. I would like to be able to report what was reported as a report - nothing more or less. What we have so far is a 17th century report that Morin indicated on his solar return that the year of the year of his death was "the worst and for my life most dangerous" - and we can see that objectively, with our astrological knowledge (however we redraw the charts) that his fears were well founded. So there is something to learn for all of us, and it is a very interesting case-study to explore.

To be honest I don't know a lot about Morin's work, and previously never had much interest or liking of him as an astrologer. But there is an angle in this that gets me very interested and curious - don't know why, but I do feel I suddenly want to see things through his eyes. Confused
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the clarification Martin.

I found a few things in the solar return for 1656. The charts hae been published elsewehere on this thread.

1) The SR ASC is conjunct (within 2 degrees) of the natal 8th house cusp.
2) SR Jupiter, natal Lord 8 ), is a little more than half a degree from being exactly conjunct the natal ASC. Jupiter rules the SR 4th house of endings.
3) SR Moon, ruler of the SR 8th is almost exactly square the natal POF (Not sure he would have cited this as an indicator of death).
4) The SR ASC is conjunct the violent fixed star Antares. He indicated in Book 23 that this star was associated not only with violence, but something unfavorable.
5) SR Mars is conjunct the fixed star Hamal that Robson notes was named "The Death Wound." Ptolemy said it was of the nature of Mars and Saturn. I don't know what, if anything, Morin thought about it.

I don't know that what is above, and there may be much more, would have alarmed Morin if he were, say, 25 years old. He might think that this alone was not enough to predict death. But the combination of the directions and this at age 73 make death a real possibility especially in 1656.

I recall from Book 23 his discussion of the solar return of King Gustav Adolphus, that he wanted quite a bit to predict death and I think it was Morin who believed that Mars alone could not bring about death.


Quote:
But the signs of such a disaster were prominent in that revolution since Jupiter, ruler of the ASC in both the radix and the revolution is in opposition to the radical MC and square the radical Mercury ruler of the seventh, which in undertakings and actions, then in wars, portended something unfortunate


The "disaster" was the King's death which is the topic of this section of the book. Morin thought highly of Gustav Adolphus. Jupiter in opposition in the SR to the MC means Jupiter is conjunct the IC, endings, and square radical Mercury ruler of the 7th house of war. The King was killed in combat.

Let's continue:


Quote:
Moreover, Venus ruler of the MC of the radix was in the first [house] of the revolution with Cor Scorpionis [Antares], a violent fixed star, and joined to Mercury, ruler of the 7th house of the revolution, also presaging something unfavorable and violent in wars that he would undertake, and in his life. And in truth the Moon, ruler of the 8th in both figures was in exile in [Scorpio] the domicile of Mars, a violent sign inclining to violent death.


That's a lot of testimony of a violent death, but he goes on:

Quote:
Nevertheless, all these things were too weak to indicate [such a] death,


Really? There is a lot more here than I can find in Morin's final solar return. But the King was a much younger man than age 73. In fact he was only 37, when he was killed in battle. So it might be fair to say that we need a lot more to predict death in the chart of a young person than an older one. And for the record, there is a lot more in the King's chart, but this thread is not about Gustav Adolphus of Sweden.

I cannot find anything, which is not the same as saying nothing is there, like the reversal of natal Mars and Saturn in the King's SR, in Morin's chart and final solar return. It might just be fair to say that it takes a lot more in the chart to kill a young man, than it does to kill an old one particularly in 17th century France.

ASIDE: Morin remarks about King Gustav Adolphus:


Quote:
[A] prince very worthy of a Christian empire, if he had only been a Catholic.


I used to quote that as a kind of joke thinking that Morin wishes such a great guy was Catholic. But Morin surely knew the King spent a lot of time and energy spilling Catholic blood in the various wars he conducted. So it seemed kind of ironic. I no longer believe irony was his intent. I think he meant to say that if the king had been a Catholic he would have been worthy of the empire he created, but he wasn't, so he didn't really deserve it. Just a thought.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was stated elsewhere, and I think I stated it, that Morin directed the solar return chart. In Book 23, he first spends quite a bit of time and space disputing Cardan's methods of directing solar and lunar returns. Although as Holden notes, Morin does so on theoretical grounds. He gives no example's of Cardan's work being wrong.

Morin's method is a bit complex, but I wanted to test something out. So I used Rumen Kolev's program Placidus and used the direction module for Morin's 1656 solar return. Kolev follows Cardan, i.e. 360 degrees = 1 year. Morin says to use the arc of direction from promissor to significator and add right ascension. I might be wrong, but how much difference could it make from one method to the other? A few days? IS astrology that accurate - even potentially?

I note that Jupiter, the ruler of the SR ASC (relocated for Paris) is directed to the conjunction of the IC on November 4, 1656, and SR Mars, his natal ruler of the ASC is also directed to the IC on November 9. Morin died on November 6. That's good enough for me. But for the record, I accidentally directed the SR cast for Villefranche and printed out those results. SR Mars is directed converse to the ASC of the SR on Nov 6 and Jupiter, ruler of the SR ASC hits the ASC on Nov 7. Morin died on Nov 6. SR Saturn, also hits the ASC on Nov7.
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Wolfgang



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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

I tried also this Modul. (4Wheel) I used (SR) it also with both places, birth and the relocated place. I did this also in other horoscopes-examples for test. I think the better results ( more close to real time, or exact hitdates) are with not relocated SR. Special in direction with SR.

I posted the result before in this thread:
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:43 pm 
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8630&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I have done later a small correction of the birth time (ARMC) to get the „exact“ ARMC as Morin used.

With this dates:
http://www.screencast.com/t/ELZkFT2Jl

How are the tests and results in this kind of technic from others?
Wolfgang
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Southern Cross



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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Morin used a special technic, he worked with PD on the the base of the Solar. He moved the angels in the motion of PD.


Which program is able to do this method? Only Kolevs Placidus?

I think I understand how Morin figured out his death with the PD and Solar Return but when using his methods on someone else it isn't that "easy" anymore. It's not rare that someone did not have any significant PD close to time of death (let's say in the range of 1 year).
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Wolfgang



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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
In zodiaco is a slightly ambiguous term. To clarify, Morin didn't use any sort of 'mundane aspects' (nor did anyone else, practically speaking, prior to Placidus), but he did advocate directions with latitude and had his own system of assigning latitude to aspect points.



Hi, Martin

I am not sure if I understand you right. So you say he did not use mundane aspects.
-But Morin used mundane direction. In his critic to Cardanus (see Book 22 p 89/90 trl. J. Herschel H., or p582 in AG) you can see. See also the footnote 147. by trl. of J. Herschel H.


Wolfgang
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Wolfgang



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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Cross wrote:
Quote:
Morin used a special technic, he worked with PD on the the base of the Solar. He moved the angels in the motion of PD.


Which program is able to do this method? Only Kolevs Placidus?

I think I understand how Morin figured out his death with the PD and Solar Return but when using his methods on someone else it isn't that "easy" anymore. It's not rare that someone did not have any significant PD close to time of death (let's say in the range of 1 year).


Hi, Southern Cross,

the technic, better the modul of this, to produce Solar.- PD (also Lunar-PD) I think only has the Program Placidus. The technic, how it works, is also written in Carl-Kühr’s book „EREIGNISZEITEN“ but only in german. ('Confused')
I did not look especially in Morin’s AG to find this part. I know that it must be there.

May, with some trick you use a SR-PD. You work by a SR like as a radix (-horoscope) and use direction to the angels, so you can get may same result! (free program Morinus?) I never tried this experiment. Key : 360° = 1 year? may

Wolfgang
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfgang wrote:
I am not sure if I understand you right. So you say he did not use mundane aspects.
-But Morin used mundane direction. In his critic to Cardanus (see Book 22 p 89/90 trl. J. Herschel H., or p582 in AG) you can see. See also the footnote 147. by trl. of J. Herschel H.

I haven't got the texts with me at the moment, but as I said, in zodiaco is an ambiguous term, and so is in mundo. Morin used aspect angles taken in the zodiac -- to be precise, in special aspect circles slightly inclined to the ecliptic, so that they (typically) had some latitude from the ecliptic. He also used the bodies of the planets with latitude. What he did not do was to redefine the concept of aspects into something wholly independent of the zodiac, like the 'mundane aspects' of Placidus (where, for instance, a planet on the 5th or 9th house cusp is considered to form a mundane trine to the ascendant, etc).
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Wolfgang



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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Morin used aspect angles taken in the zodiac -- to be precise, in special aspect circles slightly inclined to the ecliptic, so that they (typically) had some latitude from the ecliptic. He also used the bodies of the planets with latitude. .


When I understand you right in the last sense , so you said in other word, he used directions which are now called "Under the Pole of the significator"?!

Wolfgang
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfgang wrote:
When I understand you right in the last sense , so you said in other word, he used directions which are now called "Under the Pole of the significator"?!

Well, yes and no. Smile That term is normally used nowadays to refer to a variant of Placidean directions. Morin used Regiomontanian directions, but you are quite right that they are based on the construction of poles (and corresponding circles of position, i.e., artificial horizons).
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Southern Cross



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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi, Southern Cross,

the technic, better the modul of this, to produce Solar.- PD (also Lunar-PD) I think only has the Program Placidus. The technic, how it works, is also written in Carl-Kühr’s book „EREIGNISZEITEN“ but only in german. ('Confused')
I did not look especially in Morin’s AG to find this part. I know that it must be there.

May, with some trick you use a SR-PD. You work by a SR like as a radix (-horoscope) and use direction to the angels, so you can get may same result! (free program Morinus?) I never tried this experiment. Key : 360° = 1 year? may


Thanks, Wolfgang.

I found this link which writes about Morin using 1° RA for direction of the Solar Returns.
http://wiki.astro.com/astrowiki/de/Tagesdirektion

So far I haven't been able to replicate the correct data which was mentioned in this thread but will try further. BTW. using 360° arc/year gives quite interesting results too.
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Wolfgang



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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Martin,

I see, and I know (!) we speak about the same medal, but from diff. side! Very Happy

Wolfgang
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Wolfgang



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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,Southern Cross


Thumbs up
Wolfgang
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