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Perfection but Moon Void of Course
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:34 pm    Post subject: Perfection but Moon Void of Course Reply with quote

Hi,
I am a bit confused about this because the two significators are coming to a conjunction in just one degree indicating perfection - but the Moon is void of course, indicating nothing will come of it?

Question: Will my partner return to our relationship?

Feb 19 2015, 9:49 AM, Kinnelon, NJ, USA
14 Deg 04 minutes ASC in Taurus

Querent: Venus, ASC ruler
Quesited: Mars, DESC ruler



Venus coming to a conjunction in just one degree, but in the 12th house! The location of both significators in the 12th can signify many things:

Quote:
The 12th house represents matters that are hidden, restrained, secret, incapable of action or of being fully understood. This can sometimes suggest conditions that are in a premature state of development and not yet recognised by the conscious mind



Quote:
Lilly notes: "the significator in the 12th house can show someone in despair"


Seems like both significators are in despair.

I notice that Uranus is also in the 12th house:

Quote:
I have often noted transits to Uranus in this house denote a time when guilty secrets and hidden vices are exposed.


The two signficators, Venus and Mars, are coming to a conjunction, the querent being the more ardent, so to me this signifies perfection.

What's throwing me off is that the Moon is void of course, which I thought means matters will hardly go well. It is separating from a square from Saturn in the 7th, which could be indicative of the querent separating from the hardships endured while separated from her partner. The moon is also separating from a conjunction with the Sun, still within orb I believe, so the Moon (querent) is separating after being "burned" by the Sun, which fits the story, because the querent has gone through a long period of difficulty in this relationship.

So the only delineation I can come up with is that the quesited will return to the partnership, but will do so hidden from the rest of the world, or in secret, or under unusual hidden circumstances - and secrets will be revealed unexpectedly in the process (Uranus). The Moon Void of Course to me is indicating more the flow of past events, which fit the reality of the situation. What is being indicated by the Moon being Void of Course, not sure...

Any help in detangling this interesting horary would be much appreciated.

Thanks.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Moon is really void of course at the moment (even though she will still conjoin Venus in the sign of Pisces) so that

"you shall seldome see a businesse goe handsomely forward when she is so." Lilly, CA, p. 112.

But being in Pisces the Moon is
"not much impedited by being voyd of course." Lilly, CA, P. 299 9.

Nevertheless, the Moon is at the very end of the sign and in her peregrination and thus not very potent.
In addition she is running to the conjunction of Venus, the querent's own significator, but not to the significator of the quesited.

But the most important testimony against the quesited reunion would be in my opinion that, before Venus could perfect her conjunction with Mars, he has evaded form pisces into Aries.

This evasion prohibits the perfection of the demanded reunion.

Additon: even if the conjunction could be perfected, there would be great doubts as to a reunion because of the position of both significators in the 12th house.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johannes,
Thank you for your take on this.

I agree with you for the most part, but I did a little bit of research on perfection outside of sign boundaries, and found this quote from Deborah Houlding in a post that she made for a different horary:


Quote:
One notion this horary does knock on the head, is the suggestion that – in Lilly’s use of horary at least – the only previous aspects that relate to the background of the question are those that perfected within the current sign, or even those which remain in orb. And that seems to suggest that Lilly was less likely to view sign boundaries as capable of fully terminating the effect of an aspectual contact, although it's clear that he regarded a change of sign as an indication of a major change in circumstances


and in yet another instance, quoting Deborah Houlding again:

.
Quote:
440 – If Presbytery Shall Stand? Lilly refers to Jupiter, a general significator of the quesited, at 28.24 Cancer, moving into Leo, and states “after his transit out of Cancer he enters the fixed sign of Leo and into the terms of Saturn, but in the first six degrees thereof he meets with several obnoxious fixed stars, and thence passes into the terms of Mercury [who is powerful but detrimented]”
The only aspectual contact referred to outside of the current sign is the conjunction with the fixed stars, but it demonstrates Lilly continuing to assess the meaning of Jupiter as it begins its progression through the next sign; rather than seeing the end of its current sign as a termination to its influence in the horary. This is something that I’ve noticed Culpeper and other contemporary authors do too.


My point for bringing up these referencers is that even though the perfection of Venus to Mars is in a different sign, I don't think it nullifies the perfection, especially since the orb of Venus to Mars is so tight.

What I do find interesting in this horary is that Mars in Pisces moves into Aries giving the quesited much more strength and power than in his current state, moving into his own sign, at the time that the perfection occurs. To me it seems that the quesited returns to the relationship in one unit of time, but on his terms which gives him much more strength in the partnership.

The fact that the conjunction takes place in the 12th; I agree with you; there is something not right in the reunion; the presence of Uranus in the 12th seems to indicate hidden secrets coming out into the open; maybe there is some form of deception invvolvled- that comes to light - Moon conjunct Neptune and separating from it - or maybe he reunites secretly with the quesited; maybe he has another woman from whom he hides the reunion? Keeping both doors open, so to speak?


I also find it interesting that Uranus in the 12th - quite prominent in there - trines Jupiter located in the 4rth by Jupiter's retrograde action- and ju[piter is ruler of the 12th. I think this transit is significant although I'm not quite sure what it is saying...
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livia



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
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Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Venus (querent) and Mars (quesited) receive eachother venus in exaltation and mars in triplicity, term, faces showing they like eachother (she loves him...not sure about him) don't perfect in pisces ...venus chasing mars is left behind when mars jumps in aris his domicile but venus detriment...he might hurt her once they meet in aries and perfect.
Moon (querent feelings and the situation) in void making no aspects before leaving sign (if u say will aspect pluto ...well it is in moon detriment...not a good sign)...sais that this situation won't change too soon if not at all.
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look forward to discovering how this situation pans out as there are a number of interesting things going in the chart (as noticed by everyone). Personally I would think that there may be some reunion of sorts, but really the point of this horary is that the current situation really is dead I think. We're basically done with this situation/sign. The Moon has stopped perfecting any aspects in that sign, the perfection between Mars and Venus occurs in the next sign. For whatever reason, the relationship as it currently stands is done, and I would think that if the relationship were to re-continue, as others have said, it would be on different terms, but ones which may not benefit the querent who will be in her detriment and of course both of them in the 12th house. To me, a better question might be "should this relationship continue" and if that were the question then I would personally think it may not be beneficial to the querent to continue with this relationship. I'm curious why the relationship ended though and whether it relates to the previous square of the Moon to Saturn in the 7th, ruling the 10th and 11th, what information this is providing to the background of this situation.

Any further information on that?
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,
Thanks for your take on this...

Quote:
For whatever reason, the relationship as it currently stands is done, and I would think that if the relationship were to re-continue, as others have said, it would be on different terms, but ones which may not benefit the querent who will be in her detriment and of course both of them in the 12th house.

I agree with you. If they were to reconcile, the dynamics and balance of the relationship will be very different from when they were together; the quesited has cut himself off from the querent and I'm pretty sure will not return unless the dynamics change radically. Hence perfection after the change of sign makes perfect sense.


Quote:
To me, a better question might be "should this relationship continue" and if that were the question then I would personally think it may not be beneficial to the querent to continue with this relationship.

I don't think she wants to ask that one! However, if enough times passes before the possible reconciliation, I think it would be wise for the querent to consider this.

Quote:
I'm curious why the relationship ended though and whether it relates to the previous square of the Moon to Saturn in the 7th, ruling the 10th and 11th, what information this is providing to the background of this situation.

Any further information on that?

Good question. The feelings of the quesited took an almost "drastic" change towards the querent after the death of the quesited's father. Now if you take a look at the chart, Saturn represents an older man, located in the 7th, and ruler of the turned 4rth, the house of the father, and intercepted in the 9th, long distance travel!

So if the Moon can represent the flow of events in relation to what happened, and the feelings of the querent, I think this horary is very accurate in depicting what happened. The drastic change in the attitude of the quesited towards the querent immediately followed the death of the father of the quesited, and right after they made a journey to attend the funeral, which was in a different country.

The Moon is peregrine after the square to Saturn; the querent is at a loss as to the sudden and drastic change in the quesited.

What does concern me is that the querent is in her detriment at the time of perfection.

I would also draw your attention to the upcoming square of Uranus to Jupiter by retrograde action - hence more powerful - in the querent's 4rth house - Jupiter ruler of the 12th and 8th! How would you interpret that? I am unable to determine this. Doesn't look good, but I think it's signficant. Thanks.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't disagree with anything posted above.

Just a sort of common-sense, human nature note. One potential reading of a VOC moon is that the current situation is unlikely to change.

One wonders, if two people break up for meaningful reasons, whether a reconciliation would really work, if the reasons leading to the break-up are still in place. To cite one example, sometimes a couple start quarreling, the vicious name-calling begins, and then there's a last-straw blow-up. S/he's oh, so sorry; but if s/he still doesn't know how to disagree in a respectful, constructive way, the will problems persist. Or he still drinks and she still nags.

If you know these two people well and the reasons for their break-up, perhaps you can also judge whether either one is likely to change.

If you use Chiron, the moon does head to a conjunction with the cosmic Big Ouch-- or possibly leaves her the sadder but wiser girl over the guy that got away.
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taurus7 wrote:
Hence perfection after the change of sign makes perfect sense.


Right, and with the querent losing her dignity in the next sign, I think it would not feel beneficial or comfortable to her to make the kind of compromises that may be required for the relationship to continue in a manner that benefits both.
However Mars probably feels much better in himself now that he has walked away from the relationship and is literally retreating away from his old situation by entering the 12th - away from the spotlight. That venus is chasing him in there may not be too beneficial. I think he needs a lot of space and whilst there may be some reunion in the future I think it will be different enough that the querent needs to think hard about what it is she wants from a relationship compared to what it is this man can provide right now.

Quote:
So if the Moon can represent the flow of events in relation to what happened, and the feelings of the querent, I think this horary is very accurate in depicting what happened. The drastic change in the attitude of the quesited towards the querent immediately followed the death of the father of the quesited, and right after they made a journey to attend the funeral, which was in a different country.


Thank you for this information, it makes a lot of sense now. The 7th is also journeys to other places too incidentally but clearly this is the backdrop to the horary and so I for one have a lot of confidence now in this chart, especially as, in addition, Saturn is in the 8th sign, so may well take on signification of death (in addition to the natural signification Saturn has toward those subjects anyway). I like to find a story or narrative that runs through a horary so as to make sense of the previous aspects so as to be confident of the future ones and because building up this story helps us build up a clearer picture of the motivations of the people involved.

So following this death, we see the quesited enter the place of retreat and retirement and seclusion (including things like hospitalisation) but is content there being in its own dignity. So clearly he just needs to get away and may realise he wants other things from life for the moment and so needs time to go away free from distraction and work through that.

It is a difficult situation for the querent of course and from the horary it looks like Venus pretty much immediately catches up to Mars and there will be some reunion or dicussion or dialogue opening up again however briefly, but after that I do feel that the chart is describing a situation in which the relationship as they both know it is no longer part of their future, and if a new relationship with this man is to emerge it will be on different terms or make the querent more uncomfortable, perhaps too much so for it to be of benefit to her.
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Taurus7



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Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think he needs a lot of space and whilst there may be some reunion in the future I think it will be different enough that the querent needs to think hard about what it is she wants from a relationship compared to what it is this man can provide right now.


Wow! My compliments, Paul; you have captured the situation precisely!! I'm quite impressed Thumbs up I know the situation quite well, and you caught it.

Quote:
So following this death, we see the quesited enter the place of retreat and retirement and seclusion (including things like hospitalisation) but is content there being in its own dignity. So clearly he just needs to get away and may realise he wants other things from life for the moment and so needs time to go away free from distraction and work through that.


Wow! You did it again! this is exactly what he did; completely cut himself off from the querent at all levels; which is why the querent was so devastated, because it was so unexpected; it was like he had become another person. Which is why, from a common sense perspective, I continue to think that once he has reconciled with the death of his father, he may return to his "old" self, and reconcile with the querent; because while it's true they had problems, I think he did love the querent very much! Therefore, the reconciliation in the horary also makes sense, if you know what I mean. He is in another state right now; but this state cannot last forever.

Quote:
from the horary it looks like Venus pretty much immediately catches up to Mars and there will be some reunion or dicussion or dialogue opening up again however briefly, but after that I do feel that the chart is describing a situation in which the relationship as they both know it is no longer part of their future,


I looked at the timing of the horary. The Moon separates from Saturn by 5 degrees; the father died I think in August. The querents problems started in September, so Sep to Jan is 5 months, the horary was asked in February so the past timing is pretty accurate.

So based on past timing, and that Venus catches up with Mars in a Cardinal Cadent house in almost 1 1/2 degrees, I would time the reconciliation to be approximately 1 and 1/2 months; 6 weeks from the time of the horary, which brings us I think to first week of April. I would be curious to see what happens in that time frame, but this horary is painting a very clear story!

So the situation right now is that the querent has, in fact, stopped chasing him because she was getting nowhere! So while the horary indicates Venus being the more ardent of the two and chasing him, at this point in time she has, in fact, decided in maintaining no more than a "friendly" contact with him until further notice, which basically translates into "give him his space!"! and inherently no contact!

Quote:
the relationship as they both know it is no longer part of their future, and if a new relationship with this man is to emerge it will be on different terms or make the querent more uncomfortable, perhaps too much so for it to be of benefit to her.

The relationship can never be the same again; and if it does reconnect, I have no doubt it will be on very different terms.

Quote:
I like to find a story or narrative that runs through a horary so as to make sense of the previous aspects so as to be confident of the future ones


I draw your attention once again to the upcoming trine of Jupiter by retrograde to Uranus in the 12th; Jupiter has been said to represent "judges"; I'm wondering - could this be divorce?

How would you interpret this, I believe this is a significant part of what we can expect to happen in the future for this couple.

Thanks again - you are spot on!!
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Taurus7

I'm not sure exactly what the Jupiter Uranus square may indicate, especially as they are not main players, and I haven't spent a whole lot of time with your chart, I just glanced really quickly. My initial feeling upon hearing of the quesited's father's death is that the Lord of 8 is in the 4th - and this may indicate something pertaining to the father's death and estate, perhaps some inheritance or family property or something of that nature.

And with Uranus involving itself perhaps there's stress or battle over those resources that is also going on at the same time. I do not necessarily think it is divorce.

Hopefully more people will chime in too.
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MingWei Wang



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Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, Taurus7, thank you for sharing this interesting horary case, and could you tell us the outcome? They came back to each other again?
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Taurus7



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Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I do not necessarily think it is divorce.

OK thanks Paul.

Ming Wei
Quote:
could you tell us the outcome? They came back to each other again?

Actually, there is no outcome yet. The quesited has not returned to the querent nor has any intentions to, as of the current moment. The querent is allowing him his space. Divorce or settlement has not been brought up by either party.

I expect some movement or answers by the first week of April, as per the timing indicated by the horary. Thank you for asking.
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abraham Ibn Ezra, The Beginning of Wisdom

"...If the planet, which prognosticates all that which is to happen, does not form a visual angle with the ascending sign, the hope of the petitioner will not materialize."

Venus catches up with Mars in the 12th sign/house of Aries which is in aversion to the ascending sign. Even if this conjunction in which Mars receives Venus happens to produce some result i.e. some sort of agreement/reunion, it is likely to be bad/negative/painful for the querent.

Moreover, Saturn will also dominate the conjunction from the 8th sign by a dexter trine which is certainly not a helping influence, as both factors share an analogy, thus strengthening the evil influence.

Goran
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Taurus7



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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goran, Thank you for your take on this, very interesting.

Quote:
Even if this conjunction in which Mars receives Venus happens to produce some result i.e. some sort of agreement/reunion, it is likely to be bad/negative/painful for the querent.


I think that everyone that has seen this chart seems to agree that a possible reunion will not be of benefit to the querent. Meanwhile, I think it benefits the quesited greatly, since he gains strength and power by coming into his own dignity at the time of the reunion.

My question is how would you synthesize the state/position/or mental state of the querent if a reunion does take place? What sort of "ill" is portended for the querent? If I can understand that, it would be easier to explain to the querent to let this man go.

Thank you.
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The querent comes under the sway of the quesited and has to play according to his terms in Aries in the 12th, which cannot be good even if the reception offered should provide some protective influence and the ability to produce herself to a certain extent despite bad circumstances. With Taurus rising, the ruler of the 7th and the 12th is Mars, which speaks for itself loud and clear - the partner easily slips into the role of an adversary and produces grief and suffering, the partnership is the cause of sadness and misfortune (Ibn Ezra and Guido Bonatti mention and discuss the general meanings of signs ruled by the same planet in a chart); Mars naturally rules betrayal, among other things and the 12th signifies the enemies so the partner may prove a very hostile, even aggressive/violent influence (Mars is contrary to sect/above the earth in a day chart, in a masculine sign/quarter all of which enhances its malefic, unrestrained qualities).

Venus in Aries is in aversion to its domicile Taurus, which makes her unable to "steer the ship" i.e. manage her life constructively; she'll be groping in the dark, relying only on the partner's help/support which is likely to prove rather negative, as it contradicts her own interests. The 12th may indicate strict seclusion or distant travel the querent may have to "endure" in order to be/live with the quesited, and that is essentially contrary to her well-being.


Goran
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