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Chart Question: Lilly on an Event Chart

 
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Tom
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:39 pm    Post subject: Chart Question: Lilly on an Event Chart Reply with quote

Help me with this. The chart below is an event; King Charles II addressing Parliament in October of 1673. The King wanted money to wage war and help out the King of France who had been helping England fight the Dutch. Elias Ashmole analyzed the chart attempting to determine what, if anything Parliament would give the King. Ashmole sent his analysis to Lilly for his opinion. On October 30, 1673, Lilly replied:

“ … Moon and Mercury are for the Parl: (sic) the most inferior planets / Moon in via combust. – Mercury sub radiis, going to combustion, trine Saturn, and Mars.

Why Moon and Mercury for Parliament? I think he might be using the Moon as the general significator of the public, but Mercury is a mystery to me. The 11th house is usually Parliament, advisers to the King. But Scorpio is on the cusp, Mars is conjunct the MC, and Mercury is in 10 in Scorpio. Is he simply using general significators? Mercury is ambassadors or perhaps he sees Parliament as a debating society of sorts?
It’s not just that the ruler of 11 is also the ruler of the MC, either. Lilly in his next letter dated Nov 3 informs Ashmole that he used the wrong significator for the King. Ashmole used Lord 10, Mars, and the Sun, but Lilly said he should use Lord 1, Jupiter, because the King addressed Parliament personally. If the Chancellor had addressed Parliament for the King, then, said Lilly, Lord 10 is correct. Thoughts?


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Deb
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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am assuming that the king is assigned to the 1st, as the initiator of the event (rather than 10th)?
11th is for parliamentary or royal advisors who support the king, but here the king must make his case to parliament, who will support or oppose, and act as his adversary in this matter - so Parliament is signified by the 7th house that opposes his.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but here the king must make his case to parliament, who will support or oppose, and act as his adversary in this matter - so Parliament is signified by the 7th house that opposes his.


Yes and with Gemini on the 7th Mercury rules Parliament. He didn't say this, though. He just told Ashmole he (Ashmole) had made a mistake by using the ruler of the 10th to represent the King, when it should have been the first. He didn't say why the King should be the first only that if someone else, a Chancellor, gave the speech for the king, then the King would be represented by the 10th.

Perfect. Thanks Deb.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel Guilty for trying to get a quick answer on a forum that is supposed to help people learn. Deb answered the question perfectly, but the question is convoluted without context. So I offer the following explanation as a mea culpa.

My Source is William Lilly The Last Magician by Peter Stockinger and Sue Ward (pages 229 – 231). The background is as stated above, but here it is again. The year is 1673 and Charles II is King of England. England is at war with the Dutch and it is being largely financed by the French as a favor to Charles. But you can only lean on a friend for so long. Charles called Parliament in order to get some money to pay back the French and fight the war. The Power struggle between Parliament and the King was still going on 34 years after the execution of Charles’ father.

It is believed that Elias Ashmole was asked by the King to determine the success or failure of the King’s request. He cast a chart for the moment of the King’s speech which was delivered by the King himself. Ashmole sent his analysis of the speech, to his friend a now 71 year-old William Lilly, for validation or criticism. He got the criticism in a series of letters. Partial Quotes follow; Italics added by me:

Lilly to Ashmole Oct 30, 1673:


Quote:
… Mars on the cusp of the MC will asperse his honor – and because he disposes the part of fortune: they will be ill satisfied with the dispose of money etc. Moon and Mercury are for the Parl: the most inferior planets. …


This was my question: why Moon and Mercury for the Parliament? Why not Lord 11 (Mars)? Deb answered this question. The King initiated the action, therefore he is the ASC and its lord. Parliament doesn’t want to give the money and therefore they are the opponents of the King, 7th house. The 7th has Gemini on the cusp, and therefore Mercury is Parliament significator. Got it. Lilly continues.

Quote:
Moon in via combust. – Mercury sub radiis, going to combustion, Trine Saturn, and Mars.


The significators are weak. First off they are the most inferior planets. Secondly they are both accidentally debilitated. This doesn’t bode well for the King. What follows was a also a surprise to me:


Quote:
Saturn Rx will pass the bill when least expected.


I’ve never associated Saturn with surprise. But Saturn is seriously debilitated in Aries as well as being Rx.

Quote:
Or when the Sun Lord of the 8. – South Node in 8. They will not give plentifully, but plead poverty of the subject.


Later on in a letter to Ashmole dated 6 Nov 1673 Lilly explains:

Quote:
You mistake the significator of the King – had the Chancellor only spoke, you had been right (sic) – but himself speaking hath no other Significator but the Lord of the Ascendant


So if Lord 1 (Jupiter) is the king, then Lord 7 is Parliament.

I’m still a little fuzzy on Saturn and the surprise. A later date makes sense as Saturn is slow or as Lilly would have said, “Ponderous.“

So what happened? Lilly nailed it. Parliament decided to use this opportunity to get something from the King. They did vote some money, but payment was spread out over three years along with passage of the Test Act. This law required that all civil and military officers take the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper according to Church of England Custom and that an oath of allegiance had to be sworn along with a declaration against transubstantiation (that was to get rid of the Catholics). The King had no choice and it brought about the resignation from the admiralty of King Charles’ brother James, a Catholic.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
I feel Guilty for trying to get a quick answer on a forum that is supposed to help people learn. Deb answered the question perfectly, but the question is convoluted without context. So I offer the following explanation as a mea culpa.

My Source is William Lilly The Last Magician by Peter Stockinger and Sue Ward (pages 229 – 231). The background is as stated above, but here it is again. The year is 1673 and Charles II is King of England. England is at war with the Dutch and it is being largely financed by the French as a favor to Charles. But you can only lean on a friend for so long. Charles called Parliament in order to get some money to pay back the French and fight the war. The Power struggle between Parliament and the King was still going on 34 years after the execution of Charles’ father.

It is believed that Elias Ashmole was asked by the King to determine the success or failure of the King’s request. He cast a chart for the moment of the King’s speech which was delivered by the King himself. Ashmole sent his analysis of the speech, to his friend a now 71 year-old William Lilly, for validation or criticism. He got the criticism in a series of letters. Partial Quotes follow; Italics added by me:

Lilly to Ashmole Oct 30, 1673:


Quote:
… Mars on the cusp of the MC will asperse his honor – and because he disposes the part of fortune: they will be ill satisfied with the dispose of money etc. Moon and Mercury are for the Parl: the most inferior planets. …


This was my question: why Moon and Mercury for the Parliament? Why not Lord 11 (Mars)? Deb answered this question. The King initiated the action, therefore he is the ASC and its lord. Parliament doesn’t want to give the money and therefore they are the opponents of the King, 7th house. The 7th has Gemini on the cusp, and therefore Mercury is Parliament significator. Got it. Lilly continues.

Quote:
Moon in via combust. – Mercury sub radiis, going to combustion, Trine Saturn, and Mars.


The significators are weak. First off they are the most inferior planets. Secondly they are both accidentally debilitated. This doesn’t bode well for the King. What follows was a also a surprise to me:


Quote:
Saturn Rx will pass the bill when least expected.


I’ve never associated Saturn with surprise. But Saturn is seriously debilitated in Aries as well as being Rx.

Quote:
Or when the Sun Lord of the 8. – South Node in 8. They will not give plentifully, but plead poverty of the subject.


Later on in a letter to Ashmole dated 6 Nov 1673 Lilly explains:

Quote:
You mistake the significator of the King – had the Chancellor only spoke, you had been right (sic) – but himself speaking hath no other Significator but the Lord of the Ascendant


So if Lord 1 (Jupiter) is the king, then Lord 7 is Parliament.

I’m still a little fuzzy on Saturn and the surprise. A later date makes sense as Saturn is slow or as Lilly would have said, “Ponderous.“

So what happened? Lilly nailed it. Parliament decided to use this opportunity to get something from the King. They did vote some money, but payment was spread out over three years along with passage of the Test Act. This law required that all civil and military officers take the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper according to Church of England Custom and that an oath of allegiance had to be sworn along with a declaration against transubstantiation (that was to get rid of the Catholics). The King had no choice and it brought about the resignation from the admiralty of King Charles’ brother James, a Catholic.


It is interesting that Ashmole did not cast the chart for the time he received the King's request(maybe it was through one of the courtiers) but chose the event chart as a horary, and Lilly had no objection to that part.
If Ashmole had asked a horary at the time of receiving King's request, then, the King would have been first lord anyway.

Additionally, King's money- 2nd lord Saturn is in fall that is why he is asking the parliament for money(Saturn in the exaltation sign of 8th lord-turned 2nd, and retrograde- so Lilly may have thought that the King would get some money.)

PD
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