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Notes on the nativity and death of Jean Baptiste Morin
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:04 pm    Post subject: Notes on the nativity and death of Jean Baptiste Morin Reply with quote

This is not a new page on the site, but the content has been dramatically altered.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/morinchart.html

Previously the page gave details of a rectified chart - which was rectified to produce a time that came close to the details Morin reported of his own chart. I now show the chart published by Morin and a modern recalculation which is based on the time he reports, explaining how this generates a near-perfect computer match.

I also include details of the reported time of his death, and consider the report that he knew, without fail, when he would die (and why).
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Astraea



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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Deb. Morin is one of the astrologers I most admire and respect, and these additions to the page will be of great interest.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for sharing this deb and doing the work on this.

for some reason i must have looked into the birth data on morin previously as i was able to generate a chart for him with 27 aries 25 rising, which is close, but not exact to the chart he had with 27 aries 17.my midheaven is also out slightly at 13 cap 09, while morins chart has 13 cap 17 like the one you replicated in janus..

a few things.. it is very interesting the comment about the connection of transiting jupiter to the star at 4 gemini. i never use star data, but good to know that morin did.. it is my understanding that transit data was less relevant to astrologers like morin then primary direction data.. is your impression of this different? perhaps tom can comment as i understand he is more knowledgeable on morin then most folks at skyscript..

the data in the middle chart of your article on morin has longitutde/latitude data that says 4 N 25.. morins chart at the top says 45 - 25.. not sure if that is related.. the data for Villefranche-sur-Saône is 45°59′00″N 4°43′00″E off wiki here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villefranche-sur-Sa%C3%B4ne

this is relatively important as i understand morin was the one to come up with the system for coordinates!!!! we don't want him rolling over in his grave!

the other part of your article i wanted to comment on the quote from the late Dr. Carlos Raitzin - " Under the equal house system, the stellium in question falls in his 11th [equal] house and thus the discontents, griefs, and artful manipulations that he was destined to suffer would have been transformed into personal satisfactions arising from his profession, friendships, powerful protectors, happiness and well-being for his parents, and riches for the native; but all of this was resoundingly disproved by the facts of his life."

in fact, if one uses equal house system the way i do, or the way that has been cultivated with the re-introduction of whole sign houses - the pisces stellium does indeed land in the 12th as pisces forms the 12th house cusp putting an emphasis on the 12th house here.

finally - if someone would like to look at the primary directions, (direct and converse) using regio (which is what morin used) with the naibod key - below is a page displaying them.. saturn square sun was in effect for 1656. i would associate this with a more difficult year health wise even without the involvement of the 8th house ruler of jupiter using regio..

i would be curious for others with an interest in primary directions to share any insight they might have into this... thanks.


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Deb
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
for some reason i must have looked into the birth data on morin previously as i was able to generate a chart for him with 27 aries 25 rising, which is close, but not exact to the chart he had with 27 aries 17.my midheaven is also out slightly at 13 cap 09, while morins chart has 13 cap 17 like the one you replicated in janus..

A lot of sources give out what they call “rectified” birth times for Morin, based on times that give the closest matches to his chart. This is because they believe Morin tells us that the time should be 8:33 am LMT 23/2/1583, and they can see that doesn’t work – they use times in (various time zones) that end up equating to 8:47 am LMT. My point was to show that Morin would not make a mistake about the time of his own chart, and to demonstrate how the information he gave results in the time that has now become known as the “rectified time”, rather than the authoritative time that Morin gave himself. For example, note the confusion in the source notes on the Astro-databank page http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Morinus,_Johannes
Unfortunately, it’s not an open Wiki, otherwise I would have added a comment on the discussion page. (In any case, jiggling around with chart data shouldn’t be referred to as “rectification” in my opinion – perhaps something like “approximation” would be better. Rectification is a process that involves checking a lot of life-events with astrological events, not just flicking computer buttons until you get the positions you want).

Quote:
a few things.. it is very interesting the comment about the connection of transiting jupiter to the star at 4 gemini. i never use star data, but good to know that morin did.. it is my understanding that transit data was less relevant to astrologers like morin then primary direction data.. is your impression of this different? perhaps tom can comment as i understand he is more knowledgeable on morin then most folks at skyscript..


I’m not an expert on Morin’s technique, but I don’t believe it was ever a case of PD or transits – transits are always relevant as an activating factor for any astrological cycle; they might come at the end as a “finishing touch”, but if you get a major configuration that hits several sensitive points of the nativity, that is going to be important. (Just like if an eclipse falls on the degree of someone’s Sun, that person would be expected to feel the effect more directly than others). I didn’t look at any other cycles but only because I don’t have time to do that - Morin would have, of course. My personal interest was focussed on how astrologers of his time noted this particularly unfortunate effect of Jupiter conjunct Aldebaran, and why they noticed it for Jupiter more than any other planet. I’m working on something else that has that alignment, so got sidetracked into noticing Morin’s remarks about the violent deaths of others who had this, and the reference to his own 8th-ruler, then got curious to see if there might have been a Jupiter-Aldebaran line-up when he died. When I checked his time of death and saw that there was, I felt that couldn’t have failed to get his attention. Other things would have too, but I wasn’t looking at them.

Quote:
the data in the middle chart of your article on morin has longitutde/latitude data that says 4 N 25.. morins chart at the top says 45 - 25.. not sure if that is related.. the data for Villefranche-sur-Saône is 45°59′00″N 4°43′00″E off wiki here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villefranche-sur-Sa%C3%B4ne

this is relatively important as i understand morin was the one to come up with the system for coordinates!!!! we don't want him rolling over in his grave!


My typo in the chart wheel: thanks for pointing it out! I’ve already corrected it.

Quote:
the other part of your article i wanted to comment on the quote from the late Dr. Carlos Raitzin - " Under the equal house system, the stellium in question falls in his 11th [equal] house and thus the discontents, griefs, and artful manipulations that he was destined to suffer would have been transformed into personal satisfactions arising from his profession, friendships, powerful protectors, happiness and well-being for his parents, and riches for the native; but all of this was resoundingly disproved by the facts of his life."

in fact, if one uses equal house system the way i do, or the way that has been cultivated with the re-introduction of whole sign houses - the pisces stellium does indeed land in the 12th as pisces forms the 12th house cusp putting an emphasis on the 12th house here.


That comment was part of the original page – I wondered if it still had a place, and decided it does. If I’m looking at a historical chart I’m always interested in having it how the original astrologer drew it and understood it; and its clear he would have loathed any removal of emphasis from his loaded 12th house. Morin also had strong feelings for Regiomontanus and against Placidus, and would have not liked to have had his chart left for posterity according to the Placidus house division, which is often used in modern recreations of his chart. What is worth noting is that Morin had no recognition of a house system that follows the whole-sign principle – it simply did not exist in his awareness or deserve discussion. In any case, it would have faced the same criticism he makes about the equal house in its detachment of the MC from the 10th house cusp. Robert Corre’s Forum on Astrology site has a lot of good material about Morin, and offers James Holden’s translation of his ‘comments on House Division
in His Remarques Astrologiques’ – well worth reading to understand Morin’s views https://www.forumonastrology.com/foa/newmain.html

Quote:
finally - if someone would like to look at the primary directions, (direct and converse) using regio (which is what morin used) with the naibod key - below is a page displaying them.. saturn square sun was in effect for 1656. i would associate this with a more difficult year health wise even without the involvement of the 8th house ruler of jupiter using regio..


I’d like that too and hope this stimulates more discussion and input from others. It’s not a case of it would have been this or that, though - astrological techniques reinforce each other. At significant moments a collection of testimonies come together at the same time, and death being one of the most significant moments of life, I would expect it’s potential to be shown by every legitimate astrological technique (if not, you have to question the technique that doesn’t show it!).

One thing I would really like to verify is that report of his death, and the report that he already knew, .. smiled at doctors, etc. Unfortunately Raitzin died in 2001, so without references in his article I don't know how to get to the original source. If anyone can help with that it would be greatly appreciated.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don’t believe it was ever a case of PD or transits – transits are always relevant as an activating factor for any astrological cycle; they might come at the end as a “finishing touch”,


This is exactly the way he looks at it in Book 23 with King Gustav Adolphus of Sweden. Morin used a method of prediction that he did not invent nor claim to invent and I think Lilly used it or something like it as well. The broad indications are from primary directions. When the direction or directions are about to perfect the astrologer casts the solar return. If the direction is about to perfect near a new return or at the end of an old one, he cast charts for both years to see which one was more relevant. From there he would look at Lunar returns to narrow things down and then finally transits.

In the King's case he has what today would be called a natal T-square with Mars in Scorpio square a Jupiter in Aquarius - Saturn in Leo opposition. Jupiter rules the ASC. The MC (if memory serves) is directed to Antares. In the relevant solar return the positions of Mars and Saturn are reversed, which Morin looks on with horror. In the relevant lunar return Mars and Saturn are conjunct on natal Mars. A chess player would see this playing out in a heartbeat. All sorts of pressure from the nativity on is building up against the ruler of the ASC - the life. like a master puts pressure on a backward pawn. Finally, on the day of his death, the King decides to go into battle without his armor. Although Morin makes much of this as the King acting in an honorable way (some would say stupid), the historical reason is that his wounds from previous battles caused him great pain when he wore the armor. He was shot several times and it is doubtful the armor would have protected him all that much

But on the day of death the Sun, (co ruler of the 8th-Late Cancer on the cusp) transited all those solar and lunar return planets piling up on natal Mars and by extension the natal Jupiter-Saturn opposition. The King died. Never one to avoid gilding the Lily when he could, Morin said the King died about 11: AM which by diurnal motion would have put it in mundane conjunction as well as longitudinal conjunction to the natal Mars mess. I read one source where he died later in the afternoon, but why spoil a good story?

Now we can work with thousands of charts and never again see one that works as well as this one. The timing, even with some bungled calculations, is exquisite. But the value of the charts and the explanation is in learning how to use all these things in other charts. We don't really expect every chart to work out this well. Or if we do, we will often be disappointed.

There is a lot more in Book 23 on this chart and others that make it worthwhile to cast the charts and work with them. It's time well spent.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the additional comments - both of you.

i never at any point said their was an either or between the various techniques an astrologer can use.. obviously most astrologers use a few means of getting better insight into the working of a chart.. primary directions, solar return are generally emphasized more then transit data according to how i have read the traditionalist viewpoint.. that said, obviously transit data does factor into everything too.

really my desire was to raise the issue of the importance or relevance of primary directions, as opposed to transits which is always touted as to use martin ganstens book cover words "astrology's old master technique". maybe donna cunningham would see it differently, but regardless, i remain curious to know what pd's stand out to others in relation to morins death here.

i would also be curious to know where morin cast a solar return for 1656.. for his place of birth using the data he used i get approx 8 sag ascendant/1 libra midheaven. for paris, i get 4 sag asc/28 virgo midheaven.. the transit of jupiter at approx 4 gemini lines up pretty well with that. i am still not convinced however that was what he saw, or that the quote on his certainty of his own death is valid.. it might be and it might not be. we will never know..

Deb wrote:

One thing I would really like to verify is that report of his death, and the report that he already knew, .. smiled at doctors, etc. Unfortunately Raitzin died in 2001, so without references in his article I don't know how to get to the original source. If anyone can help with that it would be greatly appreciated.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

i would also be curious to know where morin cast a solar return for 1656


He always used the location of the native at the time of the return. I think, I'm not 100% sure, he lived in Paris at the time of his death so he would have used that location, unless he happened to be someplace else.
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting post above Tom.
Morin was definitely living in Paris at the end of his life.
The Complete Dictionary of Scientific Biography is one of several sources I've seen that confirm that:
Quote:
he was professor of mathematics at the Collège Royal (now Collège de France), a position he held until his death.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Jean-Baptiste_Morin.aspx

James, are you able to post the solar return chart?
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was aware that morin used relocated data for solar returns. what i can't be sure of is morins location at the time of his birthdate in 1656.. probably paris, but we can't know for sure..

here is what i have for morin relocated to paris 1656 below.. if you overlap it with the natal chart, one sees the prominence of jupiter on the degree of the ascendant in his natal chart - another factor pointing to an emphasis on 8th house regio.. mars by location would also be prominent, but not as much. chart below is equal house.


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Wolfgang



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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Morin used the a special technic, he worked with PD on the the base of the Solar. He moved the angels in the motion of PD.

So he had at this time in the year 1656

MA (Prom.) Conv. to AS Sig. (Solar) on 6. Nov
SA (Prom) Direct to AS Sig.(Solar) on 7.Nov
JU (Prom.) Conv. to AS Sig, (Solar) 8. Nov
MOON (Prom.) Conv. to DES Sig, 6 Nov.

He was doing this also with the Lunar and there he has SA Conv. to AS if Lunar on 4.Nov
Saturn (Lunar) is the Lord of 7th and 8th House.

Also is there the Ingress MA t (19° LIB 56) squere to the AS PD (20°11 CAN) on this day/time with small orb about 15’ .

Wolfgang
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Wolfgang, and thanks for the chart James, though I don't understand why you cast it in equal house, which is definitely not the way he would have looked at it himself. I'm pretty sure he would have used his residence location of Paris, regardless of whether he was out of town on that date.

Anyway, googling around I found something that should interest you - a previous Skyscript thread where this has been discussed before! Sorry - I missed it entirely, but it has some interesting posts in it. The one that particularly interested me is on this link.

The original source book that Graham mentions as being the basis of Hiéroz shorter bio - La Vie de maistre Jean-Baptiste Morin, written in 1660 - can be viewed on Google books and looks really interesting. I have schoolgirl French, so enough to skim through and get the gist, but not good enough to translate without spending a lot of time on it. It confirms his death occurred around two hours in the morning of Monday 6th November 1656:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xLyWiSxsFIQC&pg=PA113#v=onepage&q&f=false

It also gives a slightly different version of the chart which, curiously, differs from the one published in Astrolgia Gallica by one minute - p.121. Following that the books is all about how his horoscope describes the critical events of his life, ending with a commentary on the significations of his death (p.152-153). It says something about there being at the top of the solar return for that year a Latin inscription which remarks on how Morin expects this to be the worst and most dangerous of his life. I'm looking at the rest of the text on that page now, but I'm not sure if what he describes as directions are primary directions or the aspects in the solar return. It looks like it could be quite significant, so it would best if someone with better French than me was able to translate it. That particular page is on this link:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xLyWiSxsFIQC&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false


Last edited by Deb on Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but I'm not sure if what he describes as directions are primary directions or the aspects in the solar return.


I don't know any French or Latin. I do know that as part of his technique he advanced or "directed" the solar return. Holden used the English word "directions" for both primary directions and for directing the solar return. I don't know if Morin used the same Latin word in both instances, but I do know he advanced the solar return during the course of the year.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few quick comments in no particular order:

1. The easiest way to get a correct chart for Morin is, with software that allows for that option, to enter the time 8:33 LAT (not LMT). That will take care of the seasonal difference automatically.

2. Deb seems to be right that Morin didn't know of a sign-house system, or he would almost certainly have rubbished it (as he did with the equal-house system) in Book 17 (translated by Holden, published by AFA).

3. I have to differ from Deb, though, on the matter of the location used for revolutions: Morin was adamant (above all, in Book 23) that only the place where the native happened actually to be at the time of the revolution should be used, even if he/she was living somewhere else. This is because Morin took a causal and 'naturalistic' view of astrology: at the time of the revolution, the planetary positions imprinted their results on the native wherever he/she was.

4. Anyone interested in Morin's view on transits and how they relate to other techniques should read Book 24 (again, Holden/AFA), most of which (>80 pages) is about transits and what Morin called syzygies (that is, transiting planets configured with each other without reference to any positions in the radix, etc).
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
3. I have to differ from Deb, though, on the matter of the location used for revolutions: Morin was adamant (above all, in Book 23) that only the place where the native happened actually to be at the time of the revolution should be used, even if he/she was living somewhere else. This is because Morin took a causal and 'naturalistic' view of astrology: at the time of the revolution, the planetary positions imprinted their results on the native wherever he/she was.


You'd be right then Martin, because I didn't know that. Thanks for correcting me.
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are the two pages of the 1660 biography that discuss the astrological signatures of his death. If you click on the image it expands:

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