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Fate and free will (part1)
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:30 am    Post subject: Fate and free will (part1) Reply with quote

I didn't mean to hijack the Shekinah thread so I'll start this one over here.

Though it may be a fairly short discussion TS . . .
Quote:
Belief has it's basis in some rationale ... even if the rationale isn't always apparant. Perhaps the wisdom lies in suspending judgement until the rationale becomes apparant and is understood?
One versus the other?
What if Fate = the Ultimate Destination and Free Will = all the choices under the Sun as to how they arrive at that ultimate destination? That Fate & Free Will work hand-in-hand instead of either/or?

. . . I think we're reading from the same page (consider my "vs" to be a slip of the finger on account of that's how it's usually portrayed).

May we use the allegory of a roadmap? Everyone enters life with a map which has certain towns and cities leading eventually to a destination (destiny). The routes you take however, whether highways or backroads, are up to the individual (free will).

Some roads may be a glorious ride through beautiful countryside. Other roads may present dirt tracks, bridges, roadblocks, detours, snowfalls or deserts, roads washed out etc. One can clamber over/around/through and persist in following this particular route no matter how difficult - or allow this manifestation of destiny/fate to nudge us (back) on to the route to the next town on our map.

Everyone's map is individual and made just for them. The route choices we make/take will affect our enjoyment of the journey and the speed with which we reach our destination. Bear in mind, someone else's destination may also have a different name to the destination on my map. I am also quite happy to accept that everyone else's map is completely different from mine (written in a different language, showing a different country or indeed the same language, same country but different towns and destination).

(And Skyscript is a roadside cafe where we've stopped to stretch our legs and minds and meet with fellow travellers and gather sustenance? Very Happy )

So perhaps the map is our natal chart? Perhaps the progressed, solar, lunar returns, horaries etc are the more detailed maps we've bought along the way because we wanted more information than our original one provided? Perhaps the aspects are an indication of the condition of the road/route we've chosen for this part of the journey?
Quote:
Guess it depends on what verse one chooses to sing

Yup!
Quote:
Simply a thought.

Nope! This is core belief Wink


Hi Kenneth

Quote:
In the modern world we could consider "fate" to be the result of "natural laws," such as the attraction of magnetic north and south, E=mc^2, the orbits of the planets, etc.


Quote:
Destiny is where you actually end up as a result of free will and fate. It's your landmark destinations.


I had always thought fate and destiny to be interchangeable terms and a quick look at my Concise OED this morning confirmed that (altho' maybe contrary to Andrew's opinion I really can't read Smile )

Quote:
You do a lot of choosing to create your own destinies.

Nope! That is destiny singular, the end of the journey - tho' I think this is going to end up a discussion of semantics until I can get to my dictionary, 'cos some meetings/visits are pre-destined?

Quote:
Your destinations are not totally free will

Correct, see nudging above

And not forgetting of course. . . everything I've said could be wrong Wink

Sungem
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops! oops This was supposed to end up in the Philosopy forum Laughing I've got real problems with my life map if I can't get the forum directions straight!! Laughing
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
. . I think we're reading from the same page ...


Yes, I think we are too.

Quote:

Re: Simply a thought.
Nope! This is core belief


hmmm … but aren’t simplified thoughts core beliefs?
The simple thought being the one that lies at the core of a belief construct? This simplified form being the one to which we add all the decorative trimmings? Smile

Quote:
I had always thought fate and destiny to be interchangeable terms…


Yes, but perhaps there’ s a duality within fate/destiny?
Although both point to a single destination, 'Fate' suggests an ending, 'Destiny' suggests an arrival (to extend that idea, arrival at a new beginning).
Endings and beginnings occur within 1 step, as something ends it makes way for something new to emerge. Perspective.

So perhaps while choice (Free Will) helps shape the qualitative experience, and perhaps number of choices has a certain correspondence to number of experiences, when the time comes to shuffle off this mortal coil the multitude of choices narrows to a single decision (Fate/Destiny) … that single decision denoting both an ending to one way of being and arrival at a new way of being?

1 (destination) = 2 (the convergence of two realms).
1 (destination) + 2 (convergence of two realms) = 3 (an expanded way of being/understanding).
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi TS
Re:
Quote:
Simply a thought.

At first reading this differed from "simplified thoughts" and "simple thought" so I have no problem with
Quote:
aren’t simplified thoughts core beliefs?

However, I probably came at this from the other end...
Quote:
This simplified form being the one to which we add all the decorative trimmings?

...the paring down, rather than the building up - but I can appreciate that different people approach this from different directions and perhaps I just don't remember the building process.
Quote:
Yes, but perhaps there’ s a duality within fate/destiny?
Although both point to a single destination, 'Fate' suggests an ending, 'Destiny' suggests an arrival (to extend that idea, arrival at a new beginning).

It's interesting that you should say this - now that I'm home with my OED again (which I'll get to in a minute) the entry under fate includes PHRASES seal someone's fate make it inevitable that something unpleasant will happen to someone
When did fate attain the exclusively negative context? Is this an allusion to the 3 Fates? Specifically Atropos who cuts the thread of life? (I'm on shaky ground here with dim memories of Piers Anthony and Bullfinch).
However I do agree...
Quote:
Endings and beginnings occur within 1 step, as something ends it makes way for something new to emerge. Perspective.

Ah yes - and how the view changes.
Quote:
perhaps number of choices has a certain correspondence to number of experiences

I have also personally noticed that certain "lessons" keep presenting in different guises until the "nudging" takes effect.
Quote:
1 (destination) = 2 (the convergence of two realms).
1 (destination) + 2 (convergence of two realms) = 3 (an expanded way of being/understanding).

QED...can't remember what it stands for... but I do know it means The Answer Very Happy


Hi Kenneth
I meant to be neither glib nor discourteous, so let me try again and so that I know where I'm coming from (let alone anyone else!)...
Quote:
Fate n. 1 the development of events outside a person's control, regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power. 2 the outcome of a particular situation for someone or something, especially the end of a person's life. 3 (the Fates) the three godesses (Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos) who preside over the birth and life of humans. v. (be fated) be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way.

Quote:
destiny n. events that will necessarily happen to a particular person in the future. >the hidden power believed to control this; fate.

This would seem as though
Quote:
Deterministic science is essentially an effort to reduce the world to fatalism. The scientists who promote this world view above all others are what I would call fatalistic.

...most of them are going to end up where most of us start?
Quote:
Destiny is where you actually end up as a result of free will and fate. It's your landmark destinations. You do a lot of choosing to create your own destinies

You see, I don't know that we do create our destiny - there simply may be different versions of it depending on the choices/free will that we exercised on the way to reaching it. Oh...maybe that is creating it?
Quote:
Your destinations are not totally free will, but you work with the genes and natal configuration that you've been given.

I think I actually agree with you! Very Happy (whew)

best wishes,
Sungem

PS - would someone care to meet me over in Horary? - (let's hope she gets it right this time! Laughing )
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sungem,


Quote:
QED...can't remember what it stands for... but I do know it means The Answer


QED … “quod erat demonstradum” or “quod est demonstratum” … or use of a little square. Pythagorus: “all is number”.

Seem to recall Plato(?) mentioning arithmetic should be studied for its intrinsic value, not for the purpose of commerce.

QED = 1,5,4 = Sun, Mercury, Uranus = 10 – The Wheel of Fortune.
Seems the intrinsic value illuminates ‘fortune’ … and one that doesn’t necessarily reside in a commercial bank account. Currency of a different kind. Very Happy

Thanks for sharing your time.

Warm regards,
TS
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granny_skot



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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well First,

“quod est demonstratum” is generally translated as " That has been demonstrated"

but to the thought fate vs free will

I generally think Fate is what happens to you when you dont deliberately choose to make conscious decisions. When you consciously choose to respond to life, it becomes Destiny... just an off thought to throw out there.

Granny
Leery
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to quickly add ...

Quote:
the entry under fate includes PHRASES seal someone's fate make it inevitable that something unpleasant will happen to someone
When did fate attain the exclusively negative context?


perhaps this has a corresponding link back in time to the interpretations for Saturn ... and perhaps also to King Solomon and his Seal.
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Tumbling Sphinx



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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Granny,

Quote:
well First,

“quod est demonstratum” is generally translated as " That has been demonstrated"


yes, was/is written at end of mathematical proofs/theorems to show that the result required for the proof to be complete has been obtained.

Guess it could also be Quantum Electrodynamics ... or Quietly Enduring Discoveries that Quickly Engender Delight! Very Happy

Warm regards,
TS
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Granny & TS

Thanks to you both for clearing up the QED! Very Happy
Granny:
Quote:
I generally think Fate is what happens to you when you dont deliberately choose to make conscious decisions. When you consciously choose to respond to life, it becomes Destiny

I do see what you're saying with conscious/unconscious connotations, however I'm not sure that I've ever made that distinction. I think I've lumped them together (interchangeably as I said above), in the respect that if "it" did or didn't work out - no matter what action I had or had not taken - then "it" was being handled by fate/destiny. Another "nudge" to stop and rethink the action or lack of.

I still find it interesting that we each have a slightly different view of that word fate. It has me positively intrigued that the OED should say that it's "bad".
TS:
Quote:
perhaps this has a corresponding link back in time to the interpretations for Saturn ... and perhaps also to King Solomon and his Seal.

Well, I've had a quick look around Solomon and while his ring summoned both angels and demons to do his bidding, I couldn't really find anything directly related to fate.

Saturn may hold something, to quote Bullfinch (which is the only reference of this kind that I have) -
Quote:
The representations given of Saturn are not very consistent; for on the one hand his reign is said to have been the golden age of innocence and purity, and on the other he is descibed as a monster who devoured his children.

This paragraph is footnoted with:
This inconsistency arises from considering the Saturn of the Romans the same with the Grecian deity Cronos (Time), which, as it brings an end to all things which have had a beginning, may be said to devour its own offspring.
...so that may bear further investigation - and I haven't got to the Fates yet.

I'll be back if I can find something worthwhile to pass on...of course that could depend on your definition of worthwhile Confused

cheers,
Sungem
Quote:
Guess it could also be Quantum Electrodynamics ... or Quietly Enduring Discoveries that Quickly Engender Delight!

Laughing You just didn't have enough else to occupy your mind yesterday TS!
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tumbling Sphinx, and Sungem
fate and fatal are connected words hence the negative connoctation.

Destiny is or destined is a more neutral word. Though it is more often used in a positive sense.

OED uses the root word fatal for fate, ergo negative.

TS, interesting alternatives for QED, I'm not certain that your maths tutor would be happy with you however. Wink Lovely grand Trine going on today Mars and Neptune conj at 17 Aqu, Moon at 17 -20 Gemini and Jupiter at
12 Libra...

Granny
Leery
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there,

Wot a clever Granny you are!
While I had read through the fate entry to fatum I didn't look around at the other words for relationships - blame it on the Sungem tendency for skimming - you have no doubt saved me a fruitless search after red herrings. Very Happy (I've even been spelling poor Bulfinch's name wrong again - I had this problem when we first met - comes of not reading the cover of the book you're looking in Laughing )

Though that leads me to wonder. . . nooooo, I'm no Latinist and I think it's probably time to bury this bone - (as I've said elsewhere recently) an answer is an answer is an answer.

Thanks to both you and TS for your interest and patience

Sungem
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sungem & Granny,

It’s been a pleasure and thank you both for the opportunity.

The negative interpretation of Fate and its correspondence with the negative associations given to Saturn I think perhaps draws from Saturn's description in certain areas as the Lord of Fate, Time, Karma etc the negative views of Saturn and its associate Fate not always having been the way as touched upon by Andrew & Kevin in their recent thread on “Sepharial’s Lilith” (pge 3) under Nativities & General Astrology, ie:

Quote:
Andrew: “Bernard Eccles' article on astrological physiognomy illustrates very well how traditional interpretations of astrological tradition may not be so traditional after all. Perhaps modern attempts to portray Saturn in a less than malefic light might be closer to the primal tradition of astrology than the medievalists and jyotishis might like”.

Kevin: “In two alternate Greek cosmologies, those of Pherekydes and the Orphic, he is presented solely as a beneficent procreative presence, a protector of the good. Religiously he is the ruler of the "Golden Age, when "oppression and labour, the constraints of everyday life, did not yet hold sway (Burkert, Greek Religion)”.


Positive-negative I think is subjective in line with culture, experience, education, perception etc of the prevailing times.

If memory serves, a significant period where Saturn as the Great Malefic or planet of ‘death’ received this emphasis was during the ‘dark ages’ when the life span of the average person was I think around 30 years – close to the Saturn return. Saturn also representing a limit, an end to the known realm.

The Fates – the daughters of ‘necessity’ again have correspondences to Saturn, that all living things eventually submit to these three divine daughters, which ties back to the Pythagorean/Aristotlean philosophies on nature’s law of 3 – touched upon in the recent thread with Andrew “Application Within Three Degrees” – the number three connecting with Saturnian themes via 4 – Uranus in numerology - or the quadrature aspect.

I mentioned King Solomon as he seemed representative of Saturnian themes, his rule having been 'golden’ and ‘peaceful' (Solomon meaning Sun & peace) before his ‘fall from grace’ … in addition to his seal (hexagram/ pentagram) and the societal light within which this ‘seal’ was regarded during the ‘dark ages’ which from what I understand was largely based upon the fear and superstition of the unknown, ie. unknown as to what it represented.

In addition Solomon’s Seal (the plant) is ruled by Saturn (which rules over roots) and the root of this plant which is edible and has medicinal properties is said to be best eaten after boiling in 3 changes of water.
In gemology Saturn is associated with the blue sapphire which is said to show it’s effect within 3 seconds, 3 minutes or 3 days … the theme of three continuing to repeat.
And 3 of Saturn's rings are visible through a telescope (7 in total?) with some theories having Saturn positioned closer to earth, situated above the North Pole around 3000BC (The Golden Age ... or Age of Gods? Sorry, again going by memory).
It would seem the law of 3 is still very operative in wordly matters.

I guess the negative/positive attributes accorded Fate largely depends on how one views their boundaries & responsibilities … boundaries/responsibilities perhaps evidenced in some ways by a person wearing a ring on their Saturn finger (middle finger).

I agree Sungem, it’s all interconnected!

Quote:
TS, interesting alternatives for QED, I'm not certain that your maths tutor would be happy with you however. Wink


Lol! Perhaps not happy … perhaps delighted!!! Very Happy I’m sure a few tutors would fit the description of “Quietly Enduring Discoveries” …

Quote:
Lovely grand Trine going on today Mars and Neptune conj at 17 Aqu, Moon at 17 -20 Gemini and Jupiter at 12 Libra...


Indeed ... and what are words when they come from the collective wisdom and generosity of kind hearted souls and shared amongst friends … Idea

In appreciation,
TS.
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I don't think the trine did me any good - I went haring off after myths instead of planets! So if my duffer self is front and centre blame it on the fact that transiting Jupiter is conjunct my Neptune and trine Sun & Mercury Wink

However all was not lost as to the negative interpretations of Saturn:
Quote:
As the most distant of the visible planets, Saturn signifies the boundaries of personal awareness and experience. Astrologically, it depicts the finite limit to our own perceptions, capabilities and life; the fixed extremes against which personal will-power and self determination prove futile. The archetypal figure of the stoic old-man in his deathly shroud portrays the unmoving end which awaits us all, regardless of whether or not we are prepared for it. Death, after all, is an extremely limiting experience.

Deb's article Saturn the Great Teacher
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/astrology_saturn.html
and also
Quote:
In ancient Mesopotamia the planets were seen as gods in their own right. The Babylonian name for Saturn was Sagush and the associated god was Ninurta. When the Tablets of Fate, which held the laws of the universe, were stolen by a dragon, it was Ninutra who rescued them and was henceforth placed in charge of fate and law.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/saturnmyth.html
David McCann's article Saturn in Myth & Occult Philosophy, both well worth reading if you haven't already and available on your favourite local Skyscript website!

(Don't despair Deb if you read this, it's a lot of work you can be justly proud of to give us such a vast variety of resources, I got there in the end Smile, I'll start remembering to look here first, promise, take heart from something else I saw on the way through - Ptolomy's method only caught on fifteen centuries after it was introduced Smile )

And so TS, the references by Andrew and Kevin which highlighted both the Greek and modern references to Saturn in a kinder light may simply indicate in the 21st century, we still can't make up our minds! This does gell with your comment about positive-negative being a product of the prevailing times. Though I tend to think we all subscribe somewhat to the "malefic" connotations, is it because he has generated such a reputation as The Great Teacher and the "lessons" necessarily hard, we forget that some of the teaching is in fact benevolent, or at least eventually has a benevolent effect on our travels towards our destiny? One can even include death in this if indeed
Quote:
1 (destination) = 2 (the convergence of two realms).
1 (destination) + 2 (convergence of two realms) = 3 (an expanded way of being/understanding).


Quote:
It would seem the law of 3 is still very operative in wordly matters


You present very elegant argument on its behalf both here and in the "Application within 3 degrees" thread. Again with Solomon, we have the benefic theme presented in Saturnian terms.

Quote:
I guess the negative/positive attributes accorded Fate largely depends on how one views their boundaries & responsibilities …


I agree... that we are probably once again back to that question of individual experience, thus colouring our individual perspectives of the terms fate and destiny. While many of us are not quite sure just when our free will is exercised.

It also occurred to me that although I have seen "as above, so below" (fate) oft quoted through the threads, the other maxim that was drummed into me when I was learning was the one that runs "the stars impel, they do not compel" (free will).

Quote:
... and what are words when they come from the collective wisdom and generosity of kind hearted souls and shared amongst friends …

Indeed

best wishes
Sungem
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Free will is the ability to do gladly that which I must do.' (Carl Jung)

'Destiny sets limits for us physically, psychologically, and culturally, and equips us with certain talents. Those persons who often seem the most capable of accepting the inevitable are also the most productive and the most capable of pleasure and joy.' (Rollo May)

About Saturn, please see:

http://coa.hubcom.net/mhplan.htm

On a separate but related subject:

Do attempts to incorporate the outer planets into the traditional philosophy of astrology disregard its integrity? It seems to me that this depends upon which outer planets one might wish to incorporate, the underlying rationale for their selection and inclusion, one's understanding of what constitutes a traditional philosophy of astrology (not to mention one's selection of one's preferred astrological system and philosophical worldview), whether one's understanding of traditional philosophy is rigid and inflexible or pliant and adaptive, the latitude of interpretation one permits oneself in articulating an understanding of tradition, and whether one's practice is congruent with one's convictions (or if indeed this latter state of affairs is at all important).

For example, in ancient mythology Uranus ruled all the heavenly spheres, and was the father of Saturn. Its period of eighty-four years is the product of the number of the signs multiplied by the seven planets over which it 'rules,' i.e., 12 x 7 = 84. Some astrologers have believed that Uranus is a higher octave of Saturn, Lord of Form and Time (or, in the words of Edgar Cayce, "Lord of Change"), Lord of Intellect and Invention. Whether or not one accepts the idea that "Uranus is a higher octave of Saturn," there is at least an underlying rationale for incorporating this notion into a traditional astrological system (please note: *a* traditional astrological system, not *the* traditional astrological system). An "underlying rationale" may be congruent or incongruent, consistent or inconsistent with the rest of one's argument, and one is free to accept it or to reject it as such. No big deal.

'Act so that there is no use in a centre. A wide action is not a width. A preparation is given to the ones preparing. They do not eat who mention silver and sweet. There was an occupation.' (Gertrude Stein)

'Sugar any sugar, anger every anger, lover sermon lover, centre no distractor, all order is in a measure.' (Gertrude Stein)
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew!!! (Hi) great link – yes, yes, yes!

Where to begin…if I told you everything I liked about “Planetary Rulerships: Old and New” by Maggie Hyde, I could just copy the article here and tick every second line

Quote:
Finally we arrive at Saturn, the slowest of the visible planets, ruling the positive sign of Aquarius and the negative sign of Capricorn. These two signs are opposite to those of the Sun and Moon. It is for this reason that Saturn is said to be the greater malefic and an enemy of life, since he opposes the forces of creation, "in a diametrical aspect not consistent with beneficence".


So we turn again to Saturn’s “bad” self.

However I’m more taken with the thrust of this article and its position of resistance to scrapping the established structure of rulerships in favour of including the newer planets in their place. Instead, the article posits that it should be possible to find cohesive, integrated whole where the trans-Saturnians take their rightful place – not only in the cosmos, but in astrology as well. Particularly in light of some of the recent threads and the eternal push/pull of shall we include the outers or not.

Quote:
Ptolemy is the first to record this rulership system suggesting that planets "have affinity with" the signs to which they have been "assigned". He also terms this rulership. What is important to note is that the concept of rulerships is part of a much greater doctrine, that of the ‘Dignities and Debilities’ of the planets. . .

By the time of Lilly, Ptolemy’s system of Essential Dignities had prevailed over all others


So at this point astrology has a clear, concise, integrated and extremely specific language to describe a chart’s content. It does this very, very well in the traditional sense

Quote:
The trans-Saturnians have clearly brought a challenge which threatens to destroy the whole structure of rulerships.


Clearly we now have a problem – we’ve got more planets than we know where to put, if to put and how to delineate, according to the established rules.

Quote:
The inter-relationship of planets and signs is part of a fundamental doctrine in astrology. It is not possible to ignore that doctrine and remain true to the mainstream astrological lineage. Planetary rulerships are astrological ‘givens’ , a matter of faith and not an individual preference. They are a transmission one takes up when one begins astrology, and however sober this may sound, it is only through initiation in this teaching that one can enter the wisdom tradition of astrology.


Hyde goes on to discuss how trying to fit trans-Saturnians in to the picture has usurped meaning and relationship from the established structure and how this has expanded the muddy muddle that has begun.

However – this whole picture is about displacement. If we are to integrate the outers into astrology at all, surely they should fit within the established structure and enhance instead of diminish it.

Quote:
Every time a traditional planet loses rulership to a trans-Saturnian, the new planet partly takes on the qualities which astrologers use to attribute to a traditional planet. For example, Saturn has been limited to only one realm, banished to the mountains of Capricorn to act as Lord of Form and Time, to his earthy domain where is master of the material world. Yet his rulership of the air sign Aquarius was formerly considered to be his greatest joy. It was in Aquarius that Saturn could find positive expression, could master the world of intellect and give form to abstract thought. His attributes were those of invention, sweet science and humane belief. Today, we have almost lost this understanding of Saturn in Aquarius, and given the qualities either to Uranus or the sign itself. What is odd about this movement is that most astrologers would agree positive Saturn is not the same as Uranus. It therefore makes no symbolic sense to substitute one for the other when they are recognisably different in principle. Considerable changes also arise not only with the planets, but with the meanings of the signs themselves. Aquarius is no longer understood as the place in which Saturn can manifest positively. It has become a sign of rebellion and eccentricity, qualities mapped on to it from assigning Uranus as its ruler.


Precisely…and again…

Quote:
If astrologers were convinced that the trans-Saturnians merited the status of rulership, why does each trans-Saturnian not rule two signs of the zodiac?
. . .
One way of incorporating the new planets into the old order has been to speak of co-rulership.


Try octaves – that word we are trying to use, ineffectually so far it might seem, with the trans-Saturnians.

Horses didn’t become non-existent with the advent of cars. Horses are still used for work, transport and recreation alongside cars. No doubt just as cars will retain utility for work, transport and recreation if/when space travel becomes more user-friendly.

If the outers have any meaning for astrology – and who can doubt there are times they are so “in your face” in a chart to ignore them completely would be almost negligent – then they need their own space, without filching from a tried and true, working planet/method. The outers are trying to tell us something, it’s how we interpret them that we’re at odds with, not that they do in fact have something to say.

If as has been discussed, there really is an interconnectedness, a “nature’s law of 3” – perhaps we’re looking truly looking at octaves, 3 of them! Horses, cars and spaceships! Maybe instead of trying to assign as many planets as we find (and justify for a place) to just 12 signs by displacing the traditional 7 rulers, what if we’re actually looking for 24 planets? We already have the first octave (completed by a little number called Earth, remember?), and we’ve started on the second with Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Now there are others crying for attention – Chiron, Sedna, Quaoar, Varuna etc.

Quote:
"Astrologers of old set great store by the sign positions of planets, calling some ‘exalted’, others ‘debilitated’ by their sign. This is now considered to be old-fashioned."


But it works – if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Quote:
Contact with astrological tradition and dialogue with past astrologers is an essential source of inspiration for astrologers today. This does not mean that just because an idea is old we ought to adopt it. Much of older astrology expresses a level of secondary detail and sophistication that may not be easy to understand. In this respect, . . .


I love the rest of this but I have to stop somewhere and I really recommend that others do read the article in its entirity. This is the best bit of all…

Quote:
To adopt the new planets as exclusive rulers at the expense of the old is indicative of a grave lack of the historical sense. Planetary rulerships are one of the fundamental things in astrology which we seek in our practice to examine and reaffirm. We may attempt to incorporate the new planets if we choose to do so, but unless we initially adopt the traditional structure as our starting-point, we cannot hope to create without our art for our own age. Without an awareness of the historical context, changes are no longer part of an evolving process and dialogue: they are naive and misconceived.


Soooo, who among you is going to go back to first principles and allocate the appropriate masculine/feminine, light and dark, benefic/malefic, conscious/unconscious, essential and accidental debilities and digities? With 2 signs to every trans-Saturnian please.

Now there’s a new career for some aspiring young thing!

Andrew Smile

Look what you did!!!!!
Quote:
Do attempts to incorporate the outer planets into the traditional philosophy of astrology disregard its integrity?


Well I think that the above sort of says where I'm standing at this point in time – how about others?

Quote:
Some astrologers have believed that Uranus is a higher octave of Saturn, Lord of Form and Time (or, in the words of Edgar Cayce, "Lord of Change"), Lord of Intellect and Invention. Whether or not one accepts the idea that "Uranus is a higher octave of Saturn," there is at least an underlying rationale for incorporating this notion into a traditional astrological system


If Saturn’s orbit is roughly 28 years and Uranus’ orbit is 3 times that at 84 years … could it be that 2004 DW at 84x3=252 years is the 3rd octave?

But it has to expand, not detract or displace.

(How’d I do? Very Happy )

Sungem

PS - Happy to consider other views as long as they are in English and don’t contain too many numbers – I have trouble adding the price of 2 icecreams together

PPS – I forgot to add….
Quote:
. . .blame it on the fact that transiting Jupiter is conjunct my Neptune and trine Sun & Mercury

Tr Neptune is making up the grand trine from my 3rd. With Sun-Merc conjunct 7th and Tr Jupiter conjunct natal Neptune in the 9th - it has nothing to do with "happy and expansive communication with others in a forum on esoteric subjects" - while I may have missed the trine, it didn't miss me. As above so below? sparrows falling? interconnected? - nah! - it couldn't be, could it? Wink
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