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UK General Election May 7th 2015
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:42 pm    Post subject: UK General Election May 7th 2015 Reply with quote

Quite belatedly I am finally opening a thread on this topic. I regret personal and professional responsibilities have kept me too busy to do this before now.



The General election on May 7th 2015 in the United Kingdom is set to be the tightest in Britain for decades. Both the Conservative party led by the current Prime Minister David Cameron and the opposition Labour party led by Ed Miliband have been running neck and neck in the UK opinion polls for months.

Neither party seems able to obtain a decisive edge over the other.

Several other factors are making the outcome of the next election especially hard to predict.

-The dramatic decline in support for the Liberal Democrats who have formed a coalition government with the Conservatives since 2010. They are expected to lose at least half their current seats in the UK parliament in the forthcoming election.

-The rise of support for other parties in England such as the UK Independence party (UKIP) led by Nigel Farage on the right and the Greens on the left.

- A surge of support for the Scottish National Party in Scotland who are are projected to win dozens of seats in Scotland from the Labour party.



One approach is to go straight into an examination of the the natal charts of the party leaders or their party charts. Before doing that though I would like to examine more general charts that may provide an indication of the way the election will unfold. These include a chart for the eclipse visible last month in the UK, the Aries Ingress and the Opening and close of poll charts.

We can also examine national charts for the UK such as the 1066 chart, the 1801 chart or the 1927 chart later in the thread if there is sufficient interest.

Solar Eclipse Chart For UK

Although the solar eclipse of March 20th 2015 was not total it was 90% or more over the whole UK. This will be the most significant solar eclipse visible across the whole UK until the total solar eclipse of 2090.

The chart below is for the time of maximum eclipse over London that day. Note: this is a different time from when the Moon/Sun are exactly zodiacally conjunct.



The Lord of the eclipse is Jupiter which might suggest a generally positive interpretation. However, it is retrograde which mitigates its generally benefic influence. Being retrograde certainly adds a degree of unpredictability to its influence.

But using the methods of the renaissance and medieval astrologers the decan the eclipse falls in is given emphasis too. In this case the eclipse falls in the decan of Mars.

The eclipse point is conjunct the fixed star Scheat, one of the four stars of the Great Square of Pegasus. This star has always been associated with accidents, and particularly with drowning. Conjunct the Sun, it indicates danger through water and engines. Conjunct the Moon, it suggests worry, loss and gain of friends through criticism, danger of accidents and by water, according to Robson’s Fixed Stars and Constellations. Scheat was conjunct the Moon when the Titanic sank after she hit an iceberg in 1912.

Scheat’s nature is that of Mars, which ties in with the fact that, due to its location in the third decanate of Pisces, the eclipse is also ruled by Mars.

I dont personally, work with decans myself but I do work a lot with Egyptian bounds. This eclipse falls in the bound of Saturn. Moreover, Jupiter the Lord of the eclipse is in the bound of Saturn in Leo. In the chart Saturn is in Sagittarius and also retrograde. Although in the 7th house by whole sign it falls below the DESC and is in the 6th house by any method of sign division. Saturn also rules the MC in the chart.

The fact Jupiter and Saturn are retrograde and have influence over this eclipse adds to a sense of frustrated, turgid energy and the occurence on the degree of such a difficult fixed star is not promising for a very successful clear cut result from the forthcoming election.

One observation I made last year in my article on the Scottish Referendum was that it was intriguing that this eclipse falls on the degree of the Moon (29 Pisces) on the 1066 chart.



It seems that this eclipse chart is activating a politically sensitive area of the English notion of themselves as a seperate nation. The rise of UKIP obviously fits into this. Following the Scottish independence referendum last September there has also been extensive discussion of the idea of EVEL (English Votes For English Laws).

This would prevent Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPS voting on English Domestic issues like Health, Education etc. The thrust of the argument for EVEL is that every part of the UK, apart from England, decides domestic policy in separate Parliaments and Assemblies.

The Conservative and UKIP have promoted this idea. The Labour party and Liberal Democrats have tended to reject the idea. For Labour this could lead to a scenario where after EVEL they might have more seats than the Conservatives in a General Election but not a majority of seats in England so they could not effectively pass legislation in England. Other arguments against EVEL are that England is such a dominant part of the UK (85 % of its population) that policies passed there would inevitably have an impact on the rest of the UK. For example, attempts to introduce more privatisation to the English NHS have been criticised by politicians in Wales and Scotland as this is seen as having an inevitable effect on the health services in other parts of the UK.

Of course the activation of this degree could have other interpretations since we are looking at future developments not the recent past. Traditionally, the 1066 chart is seen as having relevance for the British Royal family. Could there a royal death or a scandal involving one of the royal family?

Another possibility is that this eclipse indicates another issue relating to a separate English identity which is membership of the European Union. The Conservatives have offered a referendum on this issue if elected in May while the Labour party favour continued membership and oppose a referendum on the issue. Opinion polls indicate that support for Britain leaving the European Union is more popular in England than Scotland, Wales or Nothern Ireland.

Aries Ingress Chart for UK

Another chart prior to the election that has significance for the period of this election is the Aries ingress chart for March 21st 2015. Many astrologers use ingress charts to measure the flavour of a forthcoming election and possibly delineate the outcome.



Traditionally we look at the ruler of the MC indicating the government and the ruler of the IC representing the political opposition. Here Mercury rules the MC. Mercury is in its fall and detriment in Pisces. We see it in the fourth house and conjunct (but separating) from Neptune. On the other hand Neptune (the modern ruler of Pisces) is conjunct the IC. This seems to be be a poor indicator for the political opposition. Neptune is usually about dissolution and lack of clear focus. Jupiter, the traditional ruler of Pisces, is retrograde in Leo in the 9th house by WSH and Equal although in the 8th by Placidus.

Its worth recalling that the incumbents are a coalition government between two parties: Conservative and Liberal Democrats. So Lord 10 could reflect the fortunes of the two parties collectively.

The problems for both the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and Labour party seem reflected in this chart. Neither party seem to have an easy time of it with the confusion of Lord 10 reflected in its dispositorship in Mercury in Pisces while Neptune conjuncts the 4th house.

The Moon is always worth checking as an indicator for public opinion. Here it seems to form a trine to Jupiter. It forms no aspect to Mercury. Although it has to cross the nodal axis first. Still, could this indicate popular support going to the opposition (Labour party) eventually?

Natural Significator Planets For Parties

An alternative more experimental way of looking at the ingress chart would be to assign general significators to the major parties. On that approach Saturn represents the Conservatives and other parties of the right such as UKIP and DUP. Jupiter could represent the Labour party.

Other parties of the left such as SNP, Plaid Cymru and SDLP could be represented by Mars.

While Mercury being a common planet could represent the Liberal Democrats as the centrist party that fits a planet that can easily combine with those around it.

I haven't definitively decided yet on what planet represents the Greens. Politically they are closer to the Welsh and Scottish nationalists being radically left of centre. But as a party of peace and protection of the earth Venus in Taurus seems a good fit here. Also they have a female leader at present which adds to the Venus fit.

I am not totally convinced the planetary symbolism of Saturn is quite right for UKIP. Its true they are to the right of the Conservative party which matches a Saturn association. However, Nigel Farage is a Sun Aries with Mars in Aries and his impulsive, blunt approach to politics could be seen as quite martial. He seeks to break up the existing political system dominated by the Conservatives, Labour and Liberal Democrats. In many respects Farage is the party as far as most of the public are concerned. So this possibly fits the Mars in Aries in the ingress chart better. That kind of direct, no nonsense approach to politics could also apply to the combative leader of the SNP Nicola Sturgeon who is Scorpio rising. I think Mars in Aries could also reflect the impact this party is having on breaking up the traditional Labour dominated politics north of the border.

Interestingly, both Saturn and Jupiter are retrograde which reflects the political paralysis of a potential hung parliament. Neither party can make decisive headway on their own. Mercury as the Liberal Democrats is very weak in Pisces in the 4th. This picks up the likely electoral wipe out facing the Liberal Democrats.

In terms of house placement Saturn is in the 2nd house by whole sign but first by sign division. Jupiter in contrast falls in the 10th house by whole sign but in the cadent 9th by sign division.

Despite its cadent position Jupiter does get a trine from the Moon. Does this mean the Conservatives have too few seats to form a workable majority? Equally, does this indicate Labour relying on the support of left wing parties? The Moon is in Mars ruled Aries reflecting a more left wing, radical stance.


Opening & Close of Poll Charts

In terms of the election itself political astrologers often delineate the opening and/or close of poll charts to determine the election outcome. Some give focus to the opening of poll chart arguing the traditional astrological idea that the inception or beginning of a contest chart is crucial. Others use the end poll chart arguing it represents the final outcome of the election so better reflects the ultimate result.

But should we give focus to the ASC/DESC or MC/IC as with ingress charts? Views differ. Opening/close of poll charts can either be examined as separate charts or in comparison to other existing charts such as the natal charts of the party leaders.

Opening of Poll Chart



If we look at this as a contest chart we could assign the incumbents to the ASC and the opposition to the DESC. On that basis Mercury is strong in the sign of Gemini. But this would be strongly limited for most astrologers who would see Mercury as in the 12th house. Only those using WSH would assign Mercury to the 1st. In contrast the Moon in Sagittarius is peregrine but has the advantage of angularity. At the same time the ruler of the 7th (Jupiter) is on the IC indicating a position of obscurity.

Using whole sign houses I see this as a stronger indicator the contest chart favours the incumbents. Although Mercury in the 12th by sign division may reflect the difficulties involved and the fate of the Liberal Democrats especially. But I guess most astrologers wouldn't see it that way with Mercury in the 12th. Plus Mercury is about to square Neptune. The Moon is in an applying opposition to Venus (Lord 5/12)

Close of Poll Chart



The close of poll chart seems to give a diametrically different take on the outcome of this election! The signs on the ASC-DESC axis are reversed. Here the incumbents/status quo have Saturn RX on the ASC. Jupiter is cadent in the 9th house by sign division although in the 10th by WSH. The opposition is exceptionally strong with Mercury in the 7th in Gemini. Reading this chart alone it looks like the opposition alone will be more likely of success.

Having said that a member of my Association, Nicholas Grier put out an article in the UK Astrological Association Journal earlier this year which heavily relied on natal connections of the key players to the close of poll chart. He gave the nod to a likely scenario where David Cameron remains Prime Minister.

Enough from me. What do you think? If you want to discuss any natal charts now please go ahead. I will insert data for the main leaders from Astrodatabank in my next post.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:10 pm; edited 17 times in total
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are charts for party leaders from Astrodatabank:

David Cameron (Leader of Conservative party)

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cameron,_David_%281966%29


Ed Miliband (Leader of Labour party)

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Miliband,_Ed


Nick Clegg (Leader of Liberal Democrats)

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Clegg,_Nick


Nigel Farage (Leader of UKIP)

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Farage,_Nigel


Nicola Sturgeon (Leader of SNP and First Minister of Scotland)

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Sturgeon,_Nicola

A very out of date profile of her there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Sturgeon

I cant find any chart data for Peter Robinson the leader of the Democratic Unionist party (DUP) and First Minister of Northern Ireland. The DUP have 8 MPS in the current parliament and are projected to have 9 in the next parliament.

I suspect the DUP will have more MPS than the Greens, UKIP and Plaid Cymru combined after this election so it was really a travesty that Robinson was not invited to the TV Leaders debate last week.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Robinson_(politician)

Born 29/12/1948 Belfast, UK.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks mark - great post.

first off, as i don't live in the uk.. it is more work to understand the nuances involved in the election as a consequence. i think this is a requirement aside from the astrological insights i might be able to share.

i am curious about this idea of maximum eclipse and how it differs from the sun / moon conjunct a few minutes later.. what is the basis for that?

also is there a reason why the solar eclipse is considered but not the lunar eclipse april 4th or is it just a case of what is a more central consideration? i like the different conjectures you offer on the significance of the solar eclipse data including some possible connection to the royal family given the overlap of the 1066 chart moon at 29 pisces and the solar eclipse point..

i would be looking at the eclipse point and how it overlaps in the charts of the leaders, but i haven't done this yet.

in reference to the aries ingress chart giving some meaning to the forthcoming election -
Mark wrote:

Traditionally we look at the ruler of the MC indicating the government and the ruler of the IC representing the political opposition. Here Mercury rules the MC. Mercury is in its fall and detriment in Pisces. We see it in the fourth house and conjunct (but separating) from Neptune. On the other hand Neptune (the modern ruler of Pisces) is conjunct the IC. This seems to be be a poor indicator for the political opposition. Jupiter the traditional ruler of Pisces is retrograde in Leo in the 9th house by sign division and the 10th by whole sign.

Its worth recalling that the incumbents are a coalition government between two parties: Conservative and Liberal Democrats. So Lord 10 could reflect the fortunes of the two parties collectively.

Mark


wouldn't that also suggest it isn't a great set up favourable to the party in power as well here? with the ruler of the 10th in the home of the 4th, it would seem they are at the mercy of the opposition by being in it's domain and while the set up isn't great for either, i think it favours the opposition.. staying with the aries ingress data, i think you are correct the moon position favours the opposition given the trine to jupiter here..

continuing with your theme on the natural signifactor planets for the parties, this also seems to favour the opposition as i see it which is what you seem to suggest with the support of the moon to jupiter trine..

i will look at the day of the election when i connect it to the party leaders. thanks again for the post and opportunity to comment on it..
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James-M wrote:

Quote:
i am curious about this idea of maximum eclipse and how it differs from the sun / moon conjunct a few minutes later.. what is the basis for that?


Its Ptolemy's approach. Although it certainly predates him back to the Babylonians. Essentially its based on the idea of an eclipse as a physical phenomena. You time it from when the light of the Sun is most obscured. A chart for when the two bodies are zodiacally conjunct doesn't necessarily reflect this point in time. So its physical reality vs two dimensional symbolism.

Quote:
also is there a reason why the solar eclipse is considered but not the lunar eclipse april 4th or is it just a case of what is a more central consideration? i like the different conjectures you offer on the significance of the solar eclipse data including some possible connection to the royal family given the overlap of the 1066 chart moon at 29 pisces and the solar eclipse point..


I didn't include the lunar eclipse because it will not be visible in Britain. It will be around 12 noon (Moon on the IC) when it reaches maximum. I dont feel we are comparing like with like here. The most impressive solar eclipse in the UK for literally decades versus a lunar eclipse that will be invisible to the naked eye.

Still it is a significant lunation so its still worth looking for charts of leaders that have have anything around 14 Libra or key points in opposition or square to it. 14 Libra is close to David Cameron's Sun and Nick Clegg's Mars. Its also squaring Clegg's Sun. Although it depends how far an orb you allow.

James_M
Quote:
i would be looking at the eclipse point and how it overlaps in the charts of the leaders, but i haven't done this yet.


Excellent idea!

in reference to the aries ingress chart giving some meaning to the forthcoming election -

Quote:
Mark wrote:

Traditionally we look at the ruler of the MC indicating the government and the ruler of the IC representing the political opposition. Here Mercury rules the MC. Mercury is in its fall and detriment in Pisces. We see it in the fourth house and conjunct (but separating) from Neptune. On the other hand Neptune (the modern ruler of Pisces) is conjunct the IC. This seems to be be a poor indicator for the political opposition. Jupiter the traditional ruler of Pisces is retrograde in Leo in the 9th house by sign division and the 10th by whole sign.

Its worth recalling that the incumbents are a coalition government between two parties: Conservative and Liberal Democrats. So Lord 10 could reflect the fortunes of the two parties collectively.

Mark


James _M wrote:

Quote:
wouldn't that also suggest it isn't a great set up favourable to the party in power as well here? with the ruler of the 10th in the home of the 4th, it would seem they are at the mercy of the opposition by being in it's domain and while the set up isn't great for either, i think it favours the opposition.. staying with the aries ingress data, i think you are correct the moon position favours the opposition given the trine to jupiter here..


Yes certainly. I remember this was the case in an ingress chart for Thailand some years ago when demonstrations against the government reached a peak.

James_M wrote
Quote:
continuing with your theme on the natural signifactor planets for the parties, this also seems to favour the opposition as i see it which is what you seem to suggest with the support of the moon to jupiter trine..


I was going to look at triplicity rulers for the MC as Steven Birchfield did at the last election. But I decided the triplicity rulers of earth -Venus, Moon, Mars- were not that great a fit here. Plus in our increasingly diverse political scene its hard to split this into just three parties!

Mark
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alex62



Joined: 26 Aug 2014
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Location: UK , Croatia

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David Cameron has the best indicators, better than ever.
This and next year is also the completion of complete personal change in his life, started in 2010 when he was appointed Prime Minister...
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Mjacob



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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only briefly now give my thoughts on the Ingress chart. Whilst Venus is not technically angular she is in domicile and I do not begrudge as Lady of the Year. The King is 10th house and Mercury is in detriment and fall in the angle of the earth and does not aspect his ruler Jupiter but Luna next aspects Jupiter.Mercury in Pisces really sums up the the mind of the people. Cant make up their minds and swayed by emotion??
I suggest then that Pisces signifies the SNP on that basis too. We had the referendum voting no to Independence but there is overwhelming support for a nationalist party. Secondly looking at the 1066 chart 29 Pisces is in the 12th house but just in the 11th by WSH. That could represent a King's allies. Scotland was a separate country then of course but the United Kingdom could be seen as an alliance. The ruler Jupiter is in Leo retrograde applying away then from Regulus symbolising rebellion but now Jupiter goes forward perhaps weakening the rebels and strengthen the UK leader. With no Labour pact they cannot form a Government but neither can David Cameron. He will be taking tea in Ed's big kitchen Confused
It is the only option left

Matthew

Revised on 9th April Jupiter 12 Leo


North node in libra in the 11th means that rich and influential prosper. Looking at the chart on a simple way we see Mars exalted in the 5th and Gemini in opp has Mercury. I see the result will be unpopular with the entertainment world and the chattering classes.
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Fleur



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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imo some of the difficulties of looking at the charts of the main two contenders, David Cameron and Ed Miliband, is that David Cameron has said that at some stage he will stand down, so a conservative win wouldn't necessarily be about his chart personally.

Ed Miliband has a Midheaven of 16 degrees Capricorn 19 minutes, but his birth time is given as 2pm and the chart has a B rating for accuracy. That Pluto Uranus transiting square is obviously a big part of the picture, which we assume will either raise him to power or write him off. His Moon's Mean Node is given as 15 degrees Pisces 14 minutes, antiscion 14 degrees Libra 46 minutes. If this antiscion is squaring his Midheaven within 1 degree then it will both indicate some sort of fame, and change the whole quality of the Midheaven. As he does have some sort of fame, I assume this is likely.


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Fleur



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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


I didn't include the lunar eclipse because it will not be visible in Britain. It will be around 12 noon (Moon on the IC) when it reaches maximum. I dont feel we are comparing like with like here. The most impressive solar eclipse in the UK for literally decades versus a lunar eclipse that will be invisible to the naked eye.

Still it is a significant lunation so its still worth looking for charts of leaders that have have anything around 14 Libra or key points in opposition or square to it. 14 Libra is close to David Cameron's Sun and Nick Clegg's Mars. Its also squaring Clegg's Sun. Although it depends how far an orb you allow.



Ed Miliband's Moon's Mean Node antiscion, which squares his very key Capricorn Midheaven.

....and just to confuse, Nigel Farage's Sun is 13 degrees Aries 54 minutes. And as you say, David Cameron's Sun is close there too.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
Quote:
Imo some of the difficulties of looking at the charts of the main two contenders, David Cameron and Ed Miliband, is that David Cameron has said that at some stage he will stand down, so a conservative win wouldn't necessarily be about his chart personally.


Hi Fleur,

What Cameron has said is that he does not intend to serve as a Prime Minister beyond the next Parliament for a third term. In other words he wouldn't stand as leader for the 2020 General election. But he will be very much a candidate for Prime Minister at the forthcoming election so his chart is very central to the fortunes of the Conservative party.

Mark
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 122
Location: Stockholm

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everybody

It seems to me that this Edward Milband will lose the election.
Using here the Richard Hook method of combining hindu periods and various
progressions and transits.
(But if the prediction turns wrong I blame it of course on that the birthtime is uncertain lol).

1.
There is a natal MC-45-NE aspect.
This natal aspect is transited by both tr. Saturn and Pluto at the time of election.
Tr.PL-45-NE
Tr.SA-45-MC and Rx towards natal NE in 8th house.


2.
Tertiary progressed MC is within a degree of the South node (negative).
Tertiary progressed ME-90 tertiary progressed Saturn
(Milburn being in a Mercury planetary period, which makes this more important).
Tertiary progressed SU-90-NE


3.
Minor progressions.
Mp ASC Conjunct South node (note on same degree as tertiary progressed MC).
Mp NE--90--MA (and Mp MA)

4.
Solar arc directions.
SA NE-00-MC

If his time is correct, this solar arc is fatal !
The combination of transiting pluto and solar arc Neptune on
his MC will create a professional crisis.

Stefan
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was going to say this earlier, but was saving it til i pulled together an overview on the charts.. however i am going to say it now so that folks know my thoughts on using the angles for getting a view on the possible outcome for any particular candidate...

"one difficulty here is the lack of specific birth data for the leaders.. many of the charts are based off memory with rounded off times to the hour and 1/2 hour - 4 of them to be specific.."
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:

Quote:
one difficulty here is the lack of specific birth data for the leaders.. many of the charts are based off memory with rounded off times to the hour and 1/2 hour - 4 of them to be specific..


I totally agree. Miliband's data is only B rated and not that solid. The data for Cameron and Farage comes from their Mothers. I have discovered Mothers can be quite unreliable at times on such matters. I guess they do have other pressing things on their mind at the time! Although, I think the time we have for Cameron is probably fairly close to exact based on the work I have done on it.

I was very fortunate in my work on the Scottish Referendum last year that there was was AA data for every politician involved. Predictably, the only leader we have completely reliable AA data for here is Nicola Sturgeon, the leader of the SNP.

That allowed me the luxury to predict last year based on what I knew were accurate chart angles and I could confidently do solar returns. I really think combining profection lords with solar returns is a powerful technique. But I dont have the total confidence in the data for these English party leaders to rely on that.

Still, we live an imperfect sub-lunar realm where we have to make the best of what we have at our disposal!

Mark
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Mjacob



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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off I say that no one is born with an astrologer present with stop watch but we still have the objection that primary directions fr'instance - do not work without exact times. Astrology was practised long before we had smart phones that could tell the time and then provide the co-ordinates of lat and long with Google maps app. The ephemerides were not accurate neither.

Frankly I suspect that those who say a chart is not fit to be judged on these bases is simply evading the question and an astrologer is there to answer questions is she not?

I will say more on request

Regards

I will add that mundane astrology need not have the chart of the ruler anyway but will listen to anyone who states au contraire
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjacob wrote:

Quote:
Frankly I suspect that those who say a chart is not fit to be judged on these bases is simply evading the question and an astrologer is there to answer questions is she not?


Fair point. I wasn't suggesting avoiding the charts. But I think such uncertain data necessitates serious rectification work if we are going to have confidence in our predictive work. I have probably got rather lazy living in a country that provides birth times on birth certificates. Embarassed

Mjacob wrote:
Quote:
I will add that mundane astrology need not have the chart of the ruler anyway but will listen to anyone who states au contraire.


I hope the way I opened this thread helped to demonstrate your point in part.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol.. there will be no evasion on my part, but i am calling it like i see it.. i weigh the data accordingly..
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