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Skyscript Astrology Forum

UK General Election May 7th 2015
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 711

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, interesting that you are making the distinction between the Ascendant showing appearance and the Midheaven showing public image or career.

I was curious what Matthew said about Ptolomy's 5 degree rule, but didn't ask because it sounds like something everyone else here knows. I wondered if it meant that planets lying 5 degrees behind the angles are the most manifest? Similar to what Gauquelin said about the extra power in career and worldly renown of planets lying behind the angles.

I have looked at charts and wondered if planets behind the angles, as per Gauquelin, are about career and worldly standing, and planets lying in front of the angles about appearance?

I have often wondered if planets in front of the angles, even in the tenth house, are just for show, and who people really are in the world is about planets that lie behind the (Placidean) angles?


Last edited by Fleur on Sun May 10, 2015 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mcajob wrote:
Quote:
There is more than one way to skin a cat. How about the Sripati house system or whatever that holds that cusp means middle rather than start of house then you get 15 degrees each side.
Matthew


I have been involved in a discussion over on the general forum entitled ''The Vehlow House System.''

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8744

That system is well known in India where it is particularly associated with B.V. Raman. Along with whole sign and sripati this house system can begin the first house far above the ASC. In the case of Vehlow-Raman houses it is fifteen degrees to be specific.

Like Fleur I try to take account of the Gauquelin research seriously in my astrology. In particular his planetary plus zones. It seems to me Gauquelin's findings are in practical terms ignored by most of the astrological community.

As I point out on that thread there are 3 conventional house systems that can consider planets over 5 degrees above the ASC to still be placed in the first house. These are:

Whole Sign
Vehlow-Raman aka Indian Equal
Sripati

Mark
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mentioning Gauquelin reminded me of what he said when somebody asked him what Pluto in the Gauquelin zones denotes, and he replied a researcher and that he had it himself. I have Pluto in the Gauquelin zones too. Very different from politicians like George Galloway and Nigel Farage who have Pluto exactly conjunct their Ascendants, Farages's being slightly in his first house. I think Jeremy Paxman called George Galloway a demagogue, which might be unfair but it is a very out there and in your face kind of Pluto these guys have, Pluto for show?
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Mark
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
Quote:
Mentioning Gauquelin reminded me of what he said when somebody asked him what Pluto in the Gauquelin zones denotes, and he replied a researcher and that he had it himself.


Strange if he stated that. I was positive Gauquelin mentioned several times in his books he found no discernable evidence for the statistical prominence of the outer planets in his research on successful nativities. Only the Moon and the five visible planets.

Mark
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Fleur wrote:
Quote:
Mentioning Gauquelin reminded me of what he said when somebody asked him what Pluto in the Gauquelin zones denotes, and he replied a researcher and that he had it himself.


Strange if he stated that. I was positive Gauquelin mentioned several times in his books he found no discernable evidence for the statistical prominence of the outer planets in his research on successful nativities. Only the Moon and the five visible planets.

Mark


I remember reading what he said about Pluto denoting researchers and that he had it himself, but can't remember where. I will try to remember.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
Quote:
I remember reading what he said about Pluto denoting researchers and that he had it himself, but can't remember where. I will try to remember.


Ok. I will be interested in anything you find on that.

Gauquelin's Pluto was over 30 degrees from his ASC but i think you are right that this still fell within one of his plus zones:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gauquelin,_Michel

https://www.msu.edu/~urban/kepler/symposium2001/sld032.htm

Incidentally did you know the hellenistic astrologer/translator/scholar Robert Schmidt has Pluto on the ASC?

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Schmidt,_Robert

I probably need another moderator to step in at this point and tell me I have wandered wildly off topic here. Embarassed

Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi fleur,

yes -as i outlined in my last post to matthew - that's how i see it.. i think the ascendant and planets aspected to it have more to do with appearance then anything in the 10th..

as for the ptolemy 5 degree rule, gauguelin, and other house systems - frankly - folks have to come to terms with these different ideas/approaches and etc and find what works for them... there is no one and only true way.. many paths lead to the top of the mountain.. that said, i think there are ideas that have greater relevance, but i have already stated my views on this.. i don't like the planet in boxes concept where something is in either box 12 or box 1 for example.. it never worked for me.. there is more of an association with planets in signs then planets in boxes.. i like the wave theory - crest of wave - cusp of house.. i think the ascendant is the most important angle.. i put the midheaven as a point but feel the 12 division off the ascendant degree has a lot of merit to it.. that said, i don't do horary where astrologers have to put planets in boxes in order to answer concrete questions.. i use astrology for a means of understanding myself and others better.. whatever that is called - that is what i like to do!

matthew, if you want to talk about milibands chart - post it in the general forum and see if anyone has anything to say.. it's a particular crowd here at skyscript and sometimes it seems like it is tough to get much of anything going.. it is what it is! and the posters can always change and morph into something else...

fleur and mark - the idea of pluto and research is a common connection in modern astrology so far as i know... i tend to associate the research thing to a mercury in scorpio, or scorpio sun in the 4th - both of what gauguelin had - as suggestive of someone into research.. sun at the mercury/moon midpoint would seem to suggest that to me as well.. i wouldn't necessarily get that from pluto in the 12th.. i am not convinced of the gauguelin research in spite of my ongoing curiousity about it.. i thought much of the times had been rounded off.. i don't know how relevant there work remains given some of these issues i seemed to remember being raised..

mark - as a non moderator speaking - you have definitely taken the thread off topic, LOLOL.. i have helped, but let me try to drag it back for a moment!!

fleur - regarding george galloway's chart - what was the astrology that explained why galloway lost? he also has venus in libra - about 8 degrees, like cameron - so north node highlighting his venus, but it is not the ruler of the ascendant as it is in camerons chart.. his solar return for 2014 has the midheaven in the opposite sign of his natal midheaven - said to be a negative in general and mars/saturn form a conjunction which in turn square onto those leo planets rising in his chart.. the profection lord is the sun, which might seem to be generally a positive, especially with someone who has sun in the ascendant as he does, but i think it is compromised with the natal conjunction to pluto - he has to go thru death/rebirth from time to time and i think the saturn squaring onto his sun in the solar return from the sign scorpio and 4th house suggests this..one might get this using pluto as the modern ruler of the 4th too.. there - i answered my own question - hindsight astrology in action and 20/20, LOL!
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 122
Location: Stockholm

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at Nicola Sturgeons chart now. Found some interesting stuff there.

Not surprisingly Nicola Sturgeon had the best progression going for her in terms of public popularity !

Minor progression
At election time her Minor progressed Jupiter was exactly conjunct Moon (public). And squaring her ascendant.

(comparing with Milibands Neptune mars aspects of failured action, in the Minor progressions).

To add more spice to the house division question if using her sidereal whole sign chart, natal Jupiter is in the first house and her sun is placed in 10th house.

Also In the Hindu Dasa System she does an "Obama 08 home run" Like Obama was, She is now in the planetary period of JU-MO (public popularity), Just as Obama was in that 2008 landslide win when he rided on massive public popularity. The Jupiter Moon period is good for these purposes.


Nicola sturgeons sidereal whole signs chart:


Moon is ruling her 10th house in this chart.
And transiting Jupiter (period planet) is transiting exalted in sidereal Cancer in the 10th house of hers this year. This seems quite clearcut like one of the times of her life in terms of success.


Hindsight astrology of course. Very Happy
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james_m



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Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi stefan,

i discussed the very same signature in sturgeons minor progressions here at skyscript on april 10th.. her chart is the only one that i looked at with minor progressions as her chart is the only one i felt was an accurate birth time.. cool we came to a similar conclusion while also using different methods, when not using minor progressions!
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicola sidereal chart, with :

Inner Wheel natal
middle Wheel Minor progressions.
Outer Wheel transits.

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Stefan



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Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James

Ahh that's cool. i missed your post. I will go back and read it. Very Happy
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Mark
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Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Stefan

Thanks. Yes I was intending to discuss Sturgeon next so your post is timely. It seems like the dynamic between her and David Cameron is going to be a major theme over the next 5 years.

I haven't made much use of minor progressions. Interesting to see them used in contrast to more popular secondary or tertiary progressions. Although I just noticed James_M used them too in one of his posts last month on this thread.

I know the late Robert Blaschke was a strong advocate of all 3 systems of progressions. I rather like the idea implicit in minor progressions ( a poor title I always felt) of 1 lunar month=1 solar year. I tend to think of them as 'lunar progressions'. The contrast of course is with secondary progressions where 1 solar day =1 solar year and tertiary progressions where 1 solar day=1 lunar month.

In terms of thinking what is happening one could describe them as the following:

Solar progressions ( 1 solar day=1 solar year) ie Secondary Progresssions

Soli-Lunar progressions ( 1 solar day=1 lunar month ie Tertiary Progressions

Luni-Solar progressions (1 lunar month =1 solar year) ie Minor progressions.

I think Placidus was the first to propose secondary and lunar progressions.
Although I think placidus proposed minor progressions based on the synodic lunar month rather than the sidereal or zodiacal one.

By ''Hindu dashas'' I assume you mean specifically the Vimshottari dashas? Yes I must agree this dasha system (derived from the sidereal Nakshatras or Indian lunar mansions) does seem to work very well in tracking political careers. I have found it more useful than other time lord systems like the Firdaria. I state this despite the fact I use the tropical 12 sign zodiac. I thought the dashas picked up the themes in the UK General election well too with Cameron just about to enter his Sun dasha. I mentioned this earlier in the thread.

Mark
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 122
Location: Stockholm

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark

Yes the vimshottari system was used. This is the most generally used system of the Hindu planetary periods. And I noticed you mentioning that Cameron was entering the Sun Dasha. This is a good period for influence and rulership I assume..

Mark said:
"I know the late Robert Blaschke was a strong advocate of all 3 systems of progressions"

Yes he was. And he was largely influenced by the British astrologers here.
Charles Carter for example which he was refering to in admiration.
Another British astrologer using these Three progressions was the successor of Charles Carter..Ronald Davisson. But Davisson had his own name for these progressions.
Yearly, monthly and weekly progressions.
Blashke's do rely some on Carter's "nativity rule" and "exciting rule"
http://www.charlescarter.co.uk/nativity-rule.html

I found that this rule did apply decently with the progressions in the chart for the Conservative party.
With a mars Jupiter progression in the secondary progressions. And some
Venus-Jupiter progressions in the tertiary and minor progressions. Some benficial activity there it seems in that chart for the elections.
Maybe I'll illustrating it later with a post.


Last edited by Stefan on Mon May 11, 2015 9:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Stefan



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Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isaac Starkman wrote:
Using 19 events I rectified David Cameron's chart to 6.09.48 BST Asc 3Lib17'.
His solar returns are fantastic!
In the Solar return, Jupiter right on IC trine Mars on Desc (victory after struggle), in harmonies aspects to Sun, Moon and Uranus.
The same in the solar return, precession corrected, but here Mars rising. Mercury 180 Mon on MC/IC axis.
In the converse solar return Jupiter right on Desc, trine MC.
In the converse solar return, precession corrected, Jupiter exactly on Asc square Sun.
These charts clearly show a victory.
In primary directions in Topocentric:
III 0 Sun 1'
Uranus 60 Sun 4'
MC 120 Pluto 0'

.



Regarding Isaac's rectfication:

This rectification to 6:09:48 makes total sense to me. I will probably use it from now on.
I did look at his chart and looked at his 10th harmonic chart (Dashamsha) which is used for career in vedic astrology. I noticed that to put forth the time a couple of minutes would produce such a different career chart that would make total sense in terms of his career as prime minister and current win. Then I did look at this thread to see Isaac's rectification, and setting up the chart with this time produced the best fitting Career chart.

Career 10th chart dashamsha:



Cameron was running the planetary period of Venus since 1995.
So it have played an important role in his political career. And in fact only in the rectified chart does Venus act as 10th ruler.
( In his win now he is also in subperiod of South node. The South node is actually placed in the 10th house in the career chart conjunct Jupiter.
In this kind of chart the 10th house is the key house to Watch for, so all in all it makes total sense here).
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Kent - England

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Stefan"]
Isaac Starkman wrote:
Using 19 events I rectified David Cameron's chart to 6.09.48 BST Asc 3Lib17'.
His solar returns are fantastic!
In the Solar return, Jupiter right on IC trine Mars on Desc (victory after struggle), in harmonies aspects to Sun, Moon and Uranus.
The same in the solar return, precession corrected, but here Mars rising. Mercury 180 Mon on MC/IC axis.
In the converse solar return Jupiter right on Desc, trine MC.
In the converse solar return, precession corrected, Jupiter exactly on Asc square Sun.
These charts clearly show a victory.
In primary directions in Topocentric:
III 0 Sun 1'
Uranus 60 Sun 4'
MC 120 Pluto 0'

.

Is this the post made on 7th May at 7.55 on the day of the election? Will you predict the winner now ? Confused
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