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Mark
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
going under the beams is usually defined as being within a smaller distance then 21 degrees, but hey - i could be wrong..


Under the beams was within 15 degrees in ancient sources. But some renaissance sources used a wider orb of 17 degrees.

Ultimately, these were all standardised approximations of an astronomical phenomena that could vary due to the planet involved, location, and atmospheric phenomena. I think there is a lot to be said for using software that can actually calculate planetary visibility, heliacal rising/setting etc.

If you don't want to pay for commercial software you can try:

http://www.alcyone.de/planetary_lunar_and_stellar_visibility.html

http://www.alcyone.de/download.html

There is a city database which allows you to add whatever city you need.

Mark
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

francescomanfredi wrote:
So, we say that oriental is rising before the Sun. And that occidental is rising after the Sun. In that chart, Mars and Saturn are both oriental (and 'upper-horizon': because they rise before the Sun). But of Jupiter and Venus (both 'under-horizon'), we say that Venus is occidental and Jupiter oriental.

Jupiter and Venus are both occidental, although 'vespertine' is the term more typically used of Venus (and Mercury). Vespertine means appearing as an evening star; matutine, appearing as a morning star.

Jupiter isn't oriental, because he is not visible in the east (orient): by the time he rises at the eastern horizon it will be day, and the Sun's light obscures him. Jupiter will become visible only after the Sun has set, and then in the west; hence he is said to be occidental or western.

Quote:
So, if I got it correct, every planet has its own particular phase too.
Am I correct?

Not entirely sure what you mean by this. Every planet has its own cycle with regard to the Sun, and is always somewhere in that cycle, that is, in some phase or other.
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francescomanfredi



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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mars is the most dignified planet in the chart based on solar phase as i understand it. if you add sect and some other things like dignity - mars for sure..
venus is strong too, but in terms of solar phase, i am less sure.. maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in.
saturn is getting ready to turn retrograde in 13 days, so less strong.. retrograde is a part of solar phase, or factored into this as i understand it.
if you factor in sect, mars remains the dominant planet here..
mercury is an interesting question, as it would seem strong by planetary phase as well and obviously dignified by being in the ascendant.. again - would be good to have some authority on the concept of solar phase comment on mercury and venus here.. i thought deb was going to write a book about just this topic?[/quote]

Even I have seen that Mars is most dignified, after consulting the table.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Francesco,

Quote:
mars is the most dignified planet in the chart based on solar phase as i understand it. if you add sect and some other things like dignity - mars for sure..


I would agree. By sect its not just that we have a night chart. In terms of hemisphere you have an exalted planet of the night sect above the horizon in direct motion and in an effective house. Traditionally, nocturnal sect planets are more powerful above the earth at night. By house placement Mars is effective in the 11th house.

Venus is undoubtably in a relatively good position by solar phase as its direct, and occidental/vespertine. The fact the chart is nocturnal means its in sect. However, it is below the horizon at night. This is less desirable for a nocturnal planet ( Moon, Venus , Mars) I think Venus is very close to its greatest eastern elongation in this chart. As I primarily rely on whole sign houses venus is in the 3rd house for me and therefore in a cadent place so less effective.

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:

Quote:
march 12th 1988 seems to be the superior or inferior conjunction of sun to mercury, while april 21st is the opposite.. march 28th is somewhere in the middle.. one can see this doing heliocentric charts, as opposed to geocentric charts... maybe some astro program helps one to see this easier, but it definitely isn't solar fire!


I admit this stuff used to confuse me too when I first encountered the topic here on the forum. And I had the advantage of Deborah Houlding trying to explain it!

But when you know what to look for its easy to differentiate between when the inner planets are at inferior or superior conjunction. At inferior conjunction they are Rx both before and after conjunction while at superior conjunction they are direct. During inferior conjunction Mercury/Venus moves from the left of the the Sun to the right immediately after it. Mercury is Rx before and after this conjunction so Mercury moves behind the Sun in zodiacal degrees as the inferior planets are slower than the Sun during this part of the phase.

In contrast Mercury/Venus at superior conjunction are direct. During superior conjunction they move from the right of the Sun to the left of it in a chart. Mercury/Venus are direct before and after superior conjunction and they move ahead of the Sun in zodiacal degrees after this conjunction as the inferior planets are faster than the Sun in motion during this part of the phase.

I disagree with you about on Solar Fire. Solar Fire helps a lot too! The animation feature comes into its own for this. For example, look at Mercury when it is in inferior conjunction on February 11th 1988. Then compare it with it moving to its superior conjunction on April 20th.

Modern astrologers tend to regard the inferior conjunction as the beginning of the inner planets solar phase cycle. However, the traditional view is quite the opposite. For traditional astrologers the fact the inner planets appear to move faster and direct at superior conjunction made it preferable and like a waxing part of the phase. In contrast since inner planets appear to move slower and Rx in motion at inferior conjunction this was traditionally regarded as the waning part of the phase. Still, an inferior planet can be faster moving in some parts of its oriental/matutine phase than in certain parts of the occidental/vespertine phase. And a planet direct in oriental/matutine phase would still be preferable to a Rx inner planet in its occidental/vespertine phase.

Some years ago Deborah Houlding summarised the traditional view on this very succinctly:

Quote:
The thing to remember with the inferior planets is that there is two cycles within one, because they open from the Sun in their direct phase, reach maximum elongation, and return back in their retrograde motion – this is only half of the full cycle – then they continue separating in a retrograde motion and finally close into the Sun again. Because of this ‘double-cycle’ effect, they deserve more explanation.


There was also a traditional view on the two conjunctions that tied into the theory of epicycles and celestial spheres. The inferior conjunction takes place with the inner planet between the earth and sun. They are at their closest proximity at this stage. In the medieval view this associated the inner planets more to the worldly impermanence of the earth/sub-lunar realm. In contrast the superior conjunction takes place behind the Sun when the inner planets are further from the earth. In terms of celestial spheres this was thought to bring these planets closer to the heavenly realm/God.

Here is a useful article on Mercury by David McCAnn
on Mercury's Orbit ab=and Phases.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercuryorbit.html



Mark
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francescomanfredi



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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree. By sect its not just that we have a night chart. In terms of hemisphere you have an exalted planet of the night sect above the horizon in direct motion and in an effective house. Traditionally, nocturnal sect planets are more powerful above the earth at night. By house placement Mars is effective in the 11th house.
Venus is undoubtably in a relatively good position by solar phase as its direct, and occidental/vespertine. The fact the chart is nocturnal means its in sect. However, it is below the horizon at night. This is less desirable for a nocturnal planet ( Moon, Venus , Mars) I think Venus is very close to its greatest eastern elongation in this chart. As I primarily rely on whole sign houses venus is in the 3rd house for me and therefore in a cadent place so less effective.
Mark[/quote]

So if I'm correct, Mars is most dignified, because of its nocturnal nature, and that in night charts, nocturnals are more dignified (speaking of sect) when they are above the earth?
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jventura



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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Francesco,

I'm going to enter this topic with a rather "complex" answer, which you may not undertstand it entirely (I don't know how experienced in astrology you are). But since it confirms some of your answers, and allows me to demonstrate somewhat the usefullness of a project of mine, I'm going to try it anyway.

So, I have this project called flatlib which allows us to automate a lot of things that have been discussed here. I have produced the following code (for future reference only, don't bother to read it):

Code:

from flatlib import const
from flatlib.chart import Chart
from flatlib.datetime import Datetime
from flatlib.geopos import GeoPos
from flatlib.dignities import essential
from flatlib.dignities.accidental import AccidentalDignity

# The data
date = Datetime('1988/03/28', '6:10', '+02:00')
pos = GeoPos('41n38', '15e55')
chart = Chart(date, pos)

# For each of seven planets
for ID in const.LIST_SEVEN_PLANETS:
    obj = chart.get(ID)
    print('----- %s -----' % obj)
   
    # Essential dignities
    info = essential.EssentialInfo(obj)
    print('Essential Score:', info.score)
   
    # Accidental dignities
    aDign = AccidentalDignity(obj, chart)
    print('Haiz:', aDign.haiz())
   
    # Accidental dignities properties
    scoreP = aDign.getScoreProperties()
    print('Accidental Dignities:', {prop: score for (prop,score) in scoreP.items() if score != 0})
    scoreA = aDign.score()
    print('Accidental Score:', scoreA)
   
    # Total score
    print('Total Score:', info.score + scoreA)
    print('')


Basically, for each of the seven planets, this piece of code prints:

    - Essential dignity score
    - Haiz
    - Accidental dignities partial scores
    - Accidental dignity total score
    - Total score (Essential + Accidental scores)


Here is the result:
Code:

----- <Sun> -----
Essential Score: 7
Haiz: None
Accidental Dignities: {'benefic_asp60': 3, 'void': -2, 'house': 5, 'speed': 2}
Accidental Score: 8
Total Score: 15

----- <Moon> -----
Essential Score: 0
Haiz: Contra-Haiz
Accidental Dignities: {'haiz': -2, 'no_under_sun': 5, 'peregrine': -5, 'orientality': 2, 'speed': -2, 'light': 1, 'void': -2, 'house': 3}
Accidental Score: 0
Total Score: 0

----- <Mercury> -----
Essential Score: -7
Haiz: None
Accidental Dignities: {'benefic_asp60': 3, 'direction': 4, 'orientality': -2, 'north_node': -3, 'light': -1, 'speed': 2, 'house': 5, 'no_under_sun': 5, 'joy_house': 2}
Accidental Score: 15
Total Score: 8

----- <Venus> -----
Essential Score: 8
Haiz: None
Accidental Dignities: {'direction': 4, 'joy_sign': 3, 'orientality': 2, 'speed': 2, 'light': 1, 'no_under_sun': 5, 'house': 1}
Accidental Score: 18
Total Score: 26

----- <Mars> -----
Essential Score: 7
Haiz: None
Accidental Dignities: {'direction': 4, 'no_under_sun': 5, 'orientality': 2, 'speed': 2, 'light': 1, 'benefic_asp120': 4, 'house': 4}
Accidental Score: 22
Total Score: 29

----- <Jupiter> -----
Essential Score: 0
Haiz: None
Accidental Dignities: {'direction': 4, 'no_under_sun': 5, 'peregrine': -5, 'orientality': -2, 'speed': 2, 'light': -1, 'void': -2, 'house': 3}
Accidental Score: 4
Total Score: 4

----- <Saturn> -----
Essential Score: 5
Haiz: Contra-Haiz
Accidental Dignities: {'direction': 4, 'haiz': -2, 'orientality': 2, 'speed': -2, 'light': 1, 'void': -2, 'no_under_sun': 5, 'house': 5}
Accidental Score: 11
Total Score: 16


Basically, we can see that the most essential dignified planet is Venus (+8 ) followed by Sun and Mars (+7) and Saturn (+5). Mercury is very debilitated (-7).

If we keep the discussion regarding the orientality only, both Venus and Mars are in their correct orientalities (it is the "orientality:2" - where 2 is the score given to correct orientality/occidentality - in the Accidental Dignities line). So, Venus would have the lead here.

However, Mars is in a better house (scores 4 for 'house' vs 1 for venus 'house' - Mars in the 11th vs Venus in the 3rd house), and although Venus is in its sign of joy (scores "+3"), Mars is aspecting a benefic by trine ('benefic_asp120: 4 - scores 4 for that).

So, Mars takes the lead, closely followed by Venus, but only if we consider more details than the orientality alone. And if you see the other planets, even the essential debilitation of Mercury is somewhat balanced by good accidental factors (sextile to a benefic, direct motion, fast, in good house, etc.).

Sorry for not presenting this in a tabular form, but it's only what we have now.. Smile


João Ventura
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francescomanfredi



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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This confirms that the oriental-occidental classification (with the scheme you all posted here) is pretty important and cannot be surpassed.
Here in Italy, astrologers put too much emphasis on the accidental dignity alone, so much and heavy, to consider 'dominant' the planet only because has conjunction with one of the angles. His chart can be used to describe that, by not considering this scheme, you really get only the superficial part of the horoscope. I know the guy: after many encounters, I perceived gradually a leading martial propensity, even if it is not immediately apparent at first glance.
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francescomanfredi



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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jventura: what do you mean by Haiz?
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Quote:
jventura: what do you mean by Haiz?


Its basically a medieval use of sect which includes compatibility of a planet's placement by hemisphere and sign.

The Skyscript glossary discusses it and many other traditional terms:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/hayz.html

While some ancient sources such as Valens certainly mention the hemisphere difference in sect the majority of ancient sources just refer to whether its a night or day chart to determine sect.

This gets lost in medieval astrology and the focus shifts exclusively to Haiz/Similitude. The issue of whether its a night or day chart is neglected.

Mars has always been trickier to assess on sect since its a masculine planet but of the night sect. The ancient astrologers tended to think it was more desirable in a feminine sign like Scorpio because of the excesses of a malefic like Mars were thought to be moderated somewhat. So in terms of sect I would say Mars fits by sect in Capricorn as one of the nocturnal sect planets in a nocturnal sign. The Perso-Arabs took a different view and relied on the fact Mars was masculine to indicate it fitted better in a masculine sign. This reflects the fact hellenistic sect theory was losing its importance as Perso-Arabic astrology developed. By the renaissance sect was reduced to a very minor factor in chart delineation.

Mark
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francescomanfredi



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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What they mean then by Saturn and Moon being contra-Haiz?
Are they contrary of what they should ideally be?
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
Quote:
What they mean then by Saturn and Moon being contra-Haiz?
Are they contrary of what they should ideally be?


Saturn =Diurnal Sect. So it should be in the same hemisphere as the Sun at night ie below the earth. Also Saturn is in a feminine /nocturnal sign (Capricorn).

Moon=Leader of Night sect. It should ideally be in the hemisphere above earth at night but here it is below the earth ie ASC-DESC axis. Moon is also in a masculine/diurnal sign (Leo).

Some think sect was a rival early system to essential dignity to assess planets efficaciousness. We certainly see that above where Saturn is well placed in Capricorn by essential dignity. However, it is out of sect by time, hemisphere and sign. The only mitigation is it is oriental of the sun which better fits a masculine planet.

Mark
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francescomanfredi



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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was asking me another thing: what precisely classical authors mean when they say <when>, they mean oriental-occidental as we are speaking now?
Or they mean <oriental> and <occidental>?
I most believe that, when they say that Mars or Jupiter oriental are mostly hot, they refer to what we are speaking now, and not oriental-occidental in the sense of quadrants and neither in the sense of conjunction to ascendant-descendant. Is that right?
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/marsatt.html
One example is here: Lilly says that, when oriental, <Mars>

For example in the note
<35>
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

thanks for the thoughtful and informative reply on the issue of inner planets phases.. i will read mccanns article later.. for me it is a case of what i retain to memory to make some subjective conclusion on it all that changes.. i think about planetary phase with regard to all the planets fairly easily except mercury and venus which is harder for me to understand. what this means a bit is that unless the planet is under the beams, i tend to have a vague idea that it is in a better position then if it isn't! obviously that isn't very nuanced!

bottom line and as joao has demonstrated - solar phase is only one of a number of considerations for assessing planetary strength.. just how much one factors this in is subjective as i see it.. assessing planetary strength is subjective too as i see it.. this is probably why frances thread here is especially interesting as even if one figures out what has the most strength according to the idea of solar phase, one still has to factor other considerations and weight them according to some subjective viewpoint.

solar fire is okay. i think it could be better. i use the animate feature.. i like using it a lot on the biwheel, but one can also animate a single chart and it is helpful to do... i still think it could be better and that it isn't really laying it out with regard to solar phase.. maybe we see that differently..

back to frances's chart.. i still tend to see mercury as strong for a few reasons.. being in the ascendant and the one planet closest to an angle will give it a lot of power for good and bad.. one could argue that being in pisces isn't very helpful and i would agree with that too, but it doesn't change its power to act which overshadows the other planets in this chart as i see it.. that it is conjunct the north node also feeds into it's 'strength'.. i doubt the software will pick up any of that in terms of changing it's strength or weakness..maybe software can do this too.. the exact trine to the pof is interesting..

fortunately none of these planets operate in a vacuum.. this is where the strength of mars can be very helpful to a muddled mercury even if it is strong by being in the ascendant. same deal venus which is favourably placed in taurus and throws some serenity over the chart it might not otherwise have. the dominant square of sun- neptune, in combo with pisces rising and mercury in pisces is an interesting 3 some. the chart might have some potential for acting and drama given the moon in leo but that all seems overwhelmed by too strong a mars which is pushing the chart into action more associated with making money..

it is hard to figure out charts! solar phase is an interesting part of this. what does one do with a conclusion that mars or venus (as suggested by joao's software) is strongest in the chart? one still has to factor in all sorts of other considerations and the software is incapable of reaching any helpful conclusion other then mathematical weighing type conclusions..
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Mjacob



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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I missed the link to the McCann article but if it was the late Maurice McCann I remember him giving a mnemonic (thanks spellchecker) for assessing the strength of the outers as they go around the chart from combust , oriental sextile and so on till occidental.
Now we have some useful diagrams in Ben Dykes work
I concur with James about arithmetic counting of dignity scores. We should be able to spot the most powerful planet without this
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