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Occidental and Oriental
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francescomanfredi



Joined: 21 Apr 2015
Posts: 43

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is hard to figure out charts! solar phase is an interesting part of this. what does one do with a conclusion that mars or venus (as suggested by joao's software) is strongest in the chart? one still has to factor in all sorts of other considerations and the software is incapable of reaching any helpful conclusion other then mathematical weighing type conclusions..[/quote]


Well, I believe it is important to trace a general predominant, of course not as an excuse to remain superficial in the context of chart analysis.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M
Quote:
it is hard to figure out charts! solar phase is an interesting part of this. what does one do with a conclusion that mars or venus (as suggested by joao's software) is strongest in the chart? one still has to factor in all sorts of other considerations and the software is incapable of reaching any helpful conclusion other then mathematical weighing type conclusions..


Mjacob wrote:
Quote:
I concur with James about arithmetic counting of dignity scores. We should be able to spot the most powerful planet without this


I agree with James and Mathew here.

Dignity pointing systems can appear to provide a reassuring clarity by reducing things to a some kind of rational, objective point score. However, all pointing systems are inevitably subjective since they all rely on personal astrological assumptions to create in the first place. We therefore need to unpick and scrutinize the implicit assumptions that underlie any point scoring system.

In the astrological tradition there have been numerous approaches to dignity scoring systems.

For example see this article by Robert hand which summarises systems designed by Ibn Ezra, Montulmo, Schoener, Lilly:

http://arhatmedia.com/alldign.htm

Here is a piece from Skyscript setting out Lilly’s system:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

All these systems were commonly devised to identify the chart ruler variously known as the Kurios, Chart Victor, Lord of the Geniture etc.

This piece by Regulus Astrology sets out his interim research into the subject:

http://regulus-astrology.com/pdf/Victor_of_the_Chart.pdf

Naturally, different techniques will alter the scores we obtain. For example in a Hellenistic approach there would be a separate scoring for a night/day chart not just hemisphere /Haiz. This is lacking in all the medieval and renaissance scoring systems. And even if we agree on the point weighting for houses we will reach different scores due to our choice of house system. Even in the renaissance where there was more technical consensus there was common disagreement on how to point parts of the chart. So I think technical differences make any kind of ‘’objective’’ pointing system quite impossible.

But there is a bigger philosophical objection to this systematizing tendency. What do we actually mean by points in the first place? Power, strength? The problem with this is that it assumes all these factors ie essential dignity, sect, solar phase, aspectual connections and house placement are synomymous. I don’t believe they really are. I think we are often comparing apples with pears.

I opened a thread a while back contrasting the issues of qualitative vs quantitative on essential dignity.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7264

By qualitative factors I mean chart indicators that alter the expression of a planet and by quantitative I mean chart elements that give a planet more power or opportunity to act. Its clearly not black and white but there do seem some chart factors more heavily at one end of the spectrum than the other. Essential dignity for example is I think primarily a qualitative description of how the planets express themselves and whether their dignity lords support them. At the other extreme seems to be houses. House placement seems to be primarily about power or ability to act. A planet can have all the apparent dignity in a point system but if its not placed in an effective house (Angular or Succeedent) its going to struggle to ever express itself. Although, this can be mitigated by its dignity lords placement , reception or aspectual connections. Of course house rulership or placement can also tell us about how a planet expresses itself too in its role in a house or ruling it. Lord 6 or 12 clearly take on associations of those houses in their expression.

Getting back specifically to solar phase I think Ptolemy provides the clearest, most logical presentation of the subject. For example,:

Quote:
"The planets, when matutine, and from their first emerging until they arrive at their first station, are chiefly productive of moisture; from their first station until they rise at night, of heat; from their rising at night until their second station, of dryness; and from their second station until their occultation, they produce cold." Claudius Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, I, 8.


The ancients seem to have seen solar phase it as a kind of additional essential dignity. Hence it could alter the expression of a planet. For example, an oriental Venus adds a more assertive , pushing nature to Venus. Mars is more tempered in its oriental phase, and because moisture is a creative quality, all the planets are ‘full of the vigour of youth’ when they are in this stage, which is why they get the increased dignity score. As Mars moves more towards the opposition of the Sun, the heat becomes emphasised; so it is in this period that it becomes intemperate. But because its extreme quality is dryness, it is most destructive after opposition up to the last phase, because this is when Mars has been thoroughly warmed and the extreme dryness is further exaggerated. Hence, if you were to split this into just two periods, then the oriental phase is definitely preferable to the occidental phase.

Mark
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jventura



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 291
Location: Portugal

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again,

it seems that my answer may have moved this topic to a discussion about the relevance of arithmetic and scores, which was not what I intended. Let me try to clarify my current view with a small section of the results from my previous post:

Code:

----- <Mercury> -----
Essential Score: -7
Haiz: None
Accidental Dignities: {'benefic_asp60': 3, 'direction': 4, 'orientality': -2, 'north_node': -3, 'light': -1, 'speed': 2, 'house': 5, 'no_under_sun': 5, 'joy_house': 2}
Accidental Score: 15
Total Score: 8

----- <Venus> -----
Essential Score: 8
Haiz: None
Accidental Dignities: {'direction': 4, 'joy_sign': 3, 'orientality': 2, 'speed': 2, 'light': 1, 'no_under_sun': 5, 'house': 1}
Accidental Score: 18
Total Score: 26

----- <Mars> -----
Essential Score: 7
Haiz: None
Accidental Dignities: {'direction': 4, 'no_under_sun': 5, 'orientality': 2, 'speed': 2, 'light': 1, 'benefic_asp120': 4, 'house': 4}
Accidental Score: 22
Total Score: 29


Comparing Venus and Mars, we already know that both are essentially dignified. But when we try to compare them further, we can see that both have almost the same accidental dignities: both are direct, in their orientalities, fast, increasing light and not under the sun beams.

The software is giving the scores, but we can choose to ignore them. I am ignoring them in the comparison above. But then we have the differences: Mars is in a "better" house than Venus (11th vs 2nd) regarding the "quantity of expression" (is, say, more "visible") and we can even compare if we should give more "importance" to Venus being in her sign of joy vs Mars aspecting a benefic.

Regardless of what planet we consider "better", my goal was just to demonstrate that there are other factors beside sect and orientalities. Personally, I consider both planets strong, not one 75% strong or the other 78.5% strong.

The numbers only measure the importance that I programmed those factors to have (I didn't invented them, of course, I obtained them from the Treatise of Spheres by Luís Ribeiro and Helena Avelar). So, when we have a Venus with +26 of score and a Mars with +29 of score, we can grasp the relative strength of those planets (almost the same). But if we compare it with the +0 score of the Moon, we can measure how disproportionate the relative strengths of those planets are. Relativity is the key here..

Going further, with Mercury we can have a similar analysis. Although it is essential debilitated, there are lots of accidental factors which can give it some strength: is in the Asc, in its house of joy, direct, fast, free from the sun and aspecting a benefic. The total score is just a relative number that says that although it is essential debilitated, it is not so bad in terms of expression.

So, more important than the score, the small piece of code shows all the little details that you could have missed on the first analysis of the planets. The importance of those details to the final interpretation still depends on the astrologer himself.


João Ventura


Last edited by jventura on Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

João I note you haven't engaged with any of my objections to point scoring schemes in general I raised above.

Anyway, maybe we should keep this on topic and leave out the merits or weaknesses of point scoring schemes.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:05 am; edited 6 times in total
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francescomanfredi



Joined: 21 Apr 2015
Posts: 43

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The scheme is quite good. The only thing I think is quite exaggerated, is to tell that a peregrine planet should get -5.
Sounds like being peregrine is worst than being in fall or exile.
It is my only doubt.
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jventura



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

Mark wrote:
I note you haven't engaged with any of my objections to point scoring schemesin general which I raised above.


I made a general reply to the thread participants, and I thought I made it clear by now that my opinion is that scores are relative, and that a number can synthesize a lot of information in it (albeit with loss of "precision"). Also, that there are more factors to consider regarding "strength" than sect and orientality alone.

Finally, I presented the script for those who want to be able to reproduce the results, and the results themselves as they come from the program, in order to save myself from the trouble to create a table..


João Ventura


Last edited by jventura on Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello João

Quote:
Also, that there is more factors to consider regarding "strength" than sect and orientality alone.


But aren't there also more fundamental questions like whether solar phase is about ''strength'' at all?

For those interested there is actually a thread for those that want to explore your free software: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8668

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:08 am; edited 4 times in total
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jventura



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

As I said, my purpose was not to derail this thread, but just to provide another perspective, and I used my software and its results to demonstrate it..

João Ventura

Mark wrote:
I think several of us here are rather sceptical about the merits of such a rigid, systematizing approach.


By the way, this would make a rather interesting topic.. Smile


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Mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As I said, my purpose was not to derail this thread, just to provide another perspective.


Fair enough. I have put in the link to your thread on your free software in my last post.

Mark
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francescomanfredi



Joined: 21 Apr 2015
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here in Italy, we put too much emphasis about the so-called accidental dignity, so much that we say that a planet conjunct to an angle (especially ascendant and medium coeli) is absolutely doubtless the dominant.
But is it dominant a principle only because it is more in sight and attracts more attention?
I don't believe it. I think it is the classical mistake to put too much emphasis on what is more apparent than the substance behind.
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

francescomanfredi wrote:
we say that a planet conjunct to an angle (especially ascendant and medium coeli) is absolutely doubtless the dominant.
But is it dominant a principle only because it is more in sight and attracts more attention?
I don't believe it. I think it is the classical mistake to put too much emphasis on what is more apparent than the substance behind.

I have yet to read all of the Regulus article linked by Mark but if you saw a planet on the MC it would be important at least and if not any other angle. Not that simple of course but it is called the Victor for a reason

Astrology reveals the substance behind appearances or in my opinion anyway
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francescomanfredi



Joined: 21 Apr 2015
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have yet to read all of the Regulus article linked by Mark but if you saw a planet on the Asc in its domicile then it would be important at least
Astrology reveals the substance behind appearances or in my opinion anyway[/quote]

I have not said that it is meaningless: but many classical astrologers (Carter included) say that if a planet is conjunct to angles, means that it is very evident, but the chart must be considered in its integrity. It is not assured that the planet conjunct the angle should be the purest dominant.
Here in Italy, we declare too blindly that when a planet is conjunct ascendant, everything is subdued to that planet. And another thing we say here, is that when a planet conjuncts mc, is the same as conjuncting the ascendant: I don't think so. We too superficially displease even the night-day chart thing (we don't use it): instead that to me seem an important point. So, by that chart, we can say that Mercury and Mars seem particularly influent: but the fact that Mercury should be considered more important in this chart (only because more eminent), seems to me arguable point. And another thing: even if we always say that "the chart is important on the whole", by overestimating the accidental dignity, we lose important and more in-depth points.
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jventura



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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Francesco,

I think you should start a new thread for the "Accidental vs Essential dignities", since this one is specifically about Orientality. However, as it happens when people are really interested in these topics, threads derail naturally into other subjects, so I'm still going to reply in this thread.

In "On the Heavenly Spheres", a book which I highly recommend, the authors mention that the Essential dignities measure the quality of expression while the Accidental dignities measure the quantity of expression. So, while the essential dignities concern the essence of a planet, the accidental dignities reinforce or prevent that expression.

With that said, I do follow a systematic approach for my interpretation. For instance, I wouldn't interpret Mars or Mercury alone, but I would consider them mostly while interpreting the life areas for the houses (in the signs) they rule, or if they are in one of the houses for which I am doing an interpretation.

So, that would bring Mercury as important when I would be delineating the first house. Why? Because Mercury is there, and is conjunct the Asc, a pretty visible position. So, after interpreting the sign of the Asc, and where the Asc ruler is (which would give me that the native expresses himself in subjects related to money or other possession [Jupiter in the 2nd]), I would then pick up Mercury and interpret how important it is to the native himself (considering the obvious debility of quality, and the positive factors of "quantity"), but only after I interpreted the sign of the Asc, and where its ruler is.

Mars would come eventually on the interpretation of the 1st house ("intercepted" sign), the 8th (ruler of Scorpio), or if I interpreted the 11th house.

I believe that a systematized, hierarchical, approach is really important, instead of considering everything equally important.. The bottom line of my message is that it doesn't matter which planet is "more important". In this chart, for instance, Mercury is relevant when you are doing the interpretation of the 1st house, but not relevant when you are interpreting the 11th house..


João Ventura
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francescomanfredi



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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right, let's talk about the oriental-occidental. I will open another topic for this thing.
Speaking of orientality and occidentality, I read that ancient authors say even: <Mars>
<When>
So you know, the astrologers tell us that even the implicit quality of the planet is modified by the occidental-oriental thing.
So in this chart, Mars would get hot too, and not only of exceeding dryness.
What I note, in the reports of the chart, is that the sign interpretation of the planets lacks. Probably, the sign-position is very influenced by all the other factors, so can't be spoken upon alone.
I really don't know if it is better a numerical hierarchy as you say or a mental synthesis as Mark say. But I feel as both of you are right in some manner.
This topic is interesting in both views.
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francescomanfredi



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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

However, here it is the link to the topic about dignities http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=94755#94755

Last edited by francescomanfredi on Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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