skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

K. Ernst Kraft prediction
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Quote:
The article linked to above is very interesting, but if you refer to the text I linked to, we can see that the astrology was not dependent on Hellenistic methods. The astrological basis of the warning is very clear and obvious to me; and if you run a bi-wheel for the time of the blast (Munich, 9:20 pm) you see many valid connections, such as Moon on the 12th cusp, with Saturn conjoined to 12th-ruler Mercury, and Sun opposing Mars on the 8th cusp.


You may be correct that transits and the eclipse are quite sufficient to explain this prediction.

I have had little time to study this issue myself yet. While the use of hellenistic techniques ( beyond Ptolemy or Firmicus) seems implausible as you suggest James' comment on the nodes made we wonder if Kraft might have been using some Indian astrological ideas too?

This speculation is more plausible than it initially sounds. We tend to think of Indian astrology first being introduced to the west after WWII. However, there was considerable interest in Indian astrological ideas in Germany in the inter-war period. Articles were written on Indian astrology by Otto Von Bressensdorff (1921) , Johannes Stoeffler (1921-22), Wilhelm Wulffe (1929 onwards) , Dr A Schoeler (1930-1) Alfred Grimm (1926-31). Prior to WWI there are also numerous articles on Indian astrology by Karl Brandler-Pracht, and Dr Christian Wöllner. I confess I know little of Kraft's astrological techniques but I do wonder if he may have used the transiting nodes in his delineation of charts.

Maybe its coincidence but I note that on the dates Kraft predicted the personal danger to Hitler would be most intense the transiting nodes were exactly conjunct to the arc minute the position of Venus in the eclipse chart. Especially, significant considering Venus was Hitler's ASC ruler.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:35 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 87

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Wilhelm Wulff's rectified chart, and details of how it fell into the hands of the gestapo is also detailed in this section of the reproduction of his Zodiac and the Swastika:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wulff2.html

scroll down to see the chart


This book is sooo interesting Deb.
Not only Hitler had Saturn on Volck`s ascendant,but his Mars was opposite Hitler`s Saturn. And his own Saturn on Hitler`s ascendant,and Uranus opposite his Venus-Mars.
Wullf predicted Volck would be released from prison in july 1932 which proved accurate. Jupiter was rising and Saturn in 7th dignified
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2791
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark,

good questions regarding indian astrology having an influence on kraffts work.. and good observation on the transit node on venus back in the solar eclipse.. the solar eclipse holds a very close venus/saturn opposition which i pointed out, so this is highlighted again via the transit data if one looks at the nodal axis.. also, venus is the 8th house ruler as well as the 1st house ruler and probably equally or more important - the square between venus and saturn is highlighted strongly as a consequence of all this..

we need to find out what other techniques krafft was using.. i don't know how to do that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

Yes all good observations on the charts.

James_m wrote:
Quote:
we need to find out what other techniques krafft was using.. i don't know how to do that.


Learning German sounds a good start! Alternatively, you can rather laboriously go through google translate.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 87

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
James_m wrote:
Quote:
we need to find out what other techniques krafft was using.. i don't know how to do that.


Learning German sounds a good start!

Mark

I can read German. Are there books by him on sale?
I`m curious about which Vedic techniques he used.
But as mentioned in the preface,he seems to have been unable to predict his own troubles with the Nazis
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2791
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks mark,

here is a small bit of info to confirm my suspicion and bias, lol..

" He was the author of a number of books in French and German. Krafft was one of the originators of Cosmobiology."

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Krafft,_Karl_Ernst
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrocorreia wrote;

Quote:
I can read German. Are there books by him on sale?


Ah good for you. I confess I was being a triifle flippant in my reply to James. I had assumed the articles and books works of Krafft would be available online as they must all be out of copyright. I found much of the work of the great German astrologer Vehlow this way. He was one of the few first rate German astrologers to survive the Nazis. But I have come up a blank on Krafft so far. You may well have more success googling on German or French (thanks James!) sites. I gather from Wikipedia he wrote an epic work that was 10 years in production entitled Traits of Astro-Biology. .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Ernst_Krafft


Krafft seems to have been one of the first astrologers to apply statistical methods to his astrological research. He is mentioned by Michel Gauquelin as a pioneer in this area although Gauquelin thought there were serious flaws in his methodology.

Failing any online resources on Krafft I guess we need to consult our resident bibliographic expert Philip Graves!

astrocorreia wrote:
Quote:
I`m curious about which Vedic techniques he used.


I am not sure he did use any. It was just a speculation on my part. But
Wilhelm Wulff does certainly seem to have fused some Indian techniques with his astrology.

astrocorreia wrote:
Quote:
But as mentioned in the preface,he seems to have been unable to predict his own troubles with the Nazis


Yes but he lived in exceptionally difficult times for an astrologer. And astrologers often lack the necessary objectivity in examining their own own natal charts do they not?

But the myopia of pride and ego may provide another explanation. In addition to being highly ambitious and confident in his abilities Krafft seems to have wanted to make an astrological name for himself in Germany. Krafft also seems to have been at least initially sympathetic to the Nazis. A fact that has rather tarnished his reputation for some.

I have taken the comments below from T.W.M. van Berkel's site:

http://www.nostradamusresearch.org/en/ww2/krafft-info.htm

Quote:
A convinced national-socialist?
Quite a number of bizarre stories are told about Karl Ernst Krafft, such as that he was Hitler's astrologer or "the astrologer of the Nazis", meaning that he advised Hitler and/or prominent Germans in their war manoeuvres. Ellic Howe, who in the sixties did extensive research on the life and work of Krafft, did not find any hints for this. In his eyes, the rumour that Krafft as an astrologer was involved in war strategies, was launched by Louis de Wohl (Ludwig von Wohl, 1903-1961), in World War II working at the SOE section of the British Secret Service, who for some time gave advices, based upon "astrological counter-moves" against German war strategies which according to him were based upon astrology.[11] In 1949, a book was published about Goebbels, written by Boris von Borresholm and Karena Niehoff, based upon notes which people in his neighbourhood made during his lifetime. Else on this website, their story about the way Goebbels came to use the Centuries for propaganda purposes and the part played by Krafft, is refuted.

People who knew Krafft, such as Georg Lucht, his secretary, and dr. Hans-Hermann Kritzinger, described him as a driven, ambitious person, convinced of his own right and talent and constantly trying to appear before the footlights with epoch-making publications. In Switzerland, Krafft did not find the recognition he thought he deserved, which was reason for him to settle in Germany and to look for ways to make the astrological science as he saw it, servile to Germany. Hans Bender, a German parapsychologist who also knew Krafft, described him as political naive and a person who hoped that national-socialism would put an end to materialism and mechanistic ideas.

The question rises if Krafft was a convinced national-socialist. The literature which is studied in this substudy does not provide a simple "yes". Howe's ''Uranias Children''... contains fragments from Krafft's correspondence in 1938 and later, in which he wrote about conspiracies of Jews and freemasons, a theme which also is part of the national-socialist ideology. Krafft worked for national-socialist propaganda institutions and proclaimed the victory and supremacy of Germany. For Krafft, however, the Centuries were not merely a propaganda source, but a research object, and to this we have to add that early publications of Krafft and his correspondence from the late thirties and 1940 show that he was convinced that the Centuries contained predictions about Nazi-Germany. From the descriptions of the lectures he gave in 1941, it can be derived that above all Krafft was the centre, who by means of astrology and the Centuries explained which events immediately were at hand. He did not care if this would raise a conflict with the Gestapo.

Krafft's sympathy for nazi-Germany is a given fact, as well as his propaganda writings, but it seems that not his political conviction has been his main guideline, but his own ambitions.



Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 87

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark

I was referring to Wullf not Kraft,but Kraft would do,as well as Velhow.They were part of the Hamburg school right?

Sometimes these early 20th century astrologers seem to know more than us moderns. There was also the Dutch Knegt,whom skeptics call the white crow of astrology for getting 10 out of 10 hits in a test
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 87

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.priceminister.com/offer/buy/98035011/kraft-k-e-traite-d-astro-biologie-livre-ancien.html

Found it 2nd hand in French and ordered it. Hope it`s worth.Couldnt find it anywhere else
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrocorreia

Thanks Mark
Quote:

I was referring to Wullf not Kraft,but Kraft would do,as well as Velhow.They were part of the Hamburg school right?


Ok. As far as i know none of them were identified with the Hamburg school explicitly. Krafft sounds the closest in spirit due to his desire for more rigorous scientific methodology but In am not sure he was actually ever associated with the Hamburg School.

I dont know enough about their specific techniques to know if they applied midpoints. The figures particularly associated with the Hamburg school in Germany were Alfred Witte and Ludwig Rudolph. Witte was another astrologer who became a victim of the Nazis. He committed suicide in 1941 after years of Gestapo surveillance on his activities and repression of his works.

The Hamburg school all used Witte's hypothetical trans-Neptunian bodies. midpoints, and the hard aspects. It was renamed 'Uranian Astrology'in the USA. Reinhold Ebertin later popularised Witte's ideas on midpoints and aspects to the English speaking world in his famous book The Combination of Stellar Influences. However, Ebertin dispensed with trans-Neptunians. He renamed his slimmed down Hamburg School approach ''Cosmobiology.''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_School_of_Astrology

Vehlow, Krafft, and Wulff all seem quite individualistic in approach I think.

Wulff seems to have made use of Indian divisional charts such as the 12 fold division of each sign (Dwadashamsas) and the nine fold division of the chart (Navamsa).

Johannes Vehlow disagreed passionately with quadrant house systems and proposed a kind of equal house system with the cusp in the middle not the beginning of the house. He claimed this was the original house system and based this on what he assumed was Egyptian solar mysticism and the traditional 15 degree orb of the Sun either side of the ASC degree symbolising the rising Sun. Vehlow's monumental eight volume work Lehrkurs der wissenschaftlichen Geburts-Astrologie can be found free online:

http://www.astrologie-chirologie.com/astrologie_2.html

http://oaks.nvg.org/eg4ra3.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navamsa_(astrology)

We had a discussion on Wulff's methods in a previous Skyscript thread:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7032&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:21 pm; edited 7 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 87

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
astrocorreia

Thanks Mark
Quote:

I was referring to Wullf not Kraft,but Kraft would do,as well as Velhow.They were part of the Hamburg school right?


Ok. As far as i know none of them were identified with the Hamburg school explicitly. But I dont know enough about their specific techniques to know if they applied midpoints. The figures particularly associated with the Hamburg school in Germany were Alfred Witte and Ludwig Rudolph. Witte was another astrological victim of the Nazis.

The Hamburg school all used Witte's hypothetical trans-Neptunian bodies. midpoints, and the hard aspects. It was renamed 'Uranian Astrology'in the USA. Reinhold_Ebertin later popularised Witte's ideas on midpoints and aspects to the English speaking world but dispensed with trans-Neptunians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_School_of_Astrology

Vehlow, Krafft, and Wulff all seem quite individualistic in approach I think.

Wulff seems to have made use of Indian divisional charts such as the 12 fold division of each sign (Dwadashamsas) and the nine fold division of the chart (Navamsa).

Johannes Vehlow disagreed passionately with quadrant house systems and proposed a kind of equal house system with the cusp in the middle not the beginning of the house. He claimed this was the original house system and based this on what he assumed was Egyptian solar mysticism and the traditional 15 degree orb of the Sun either side of the ASC degree symbolising the rising Sun. Vehlow's monumental eight volume work Lehrkurs der wissenschaftlichen Geburts-Astrologie can found free online:

http://www.astrologie-chirologie.com/astrologie_2.html

http://oaks.nvg.org/eg4ra3.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navamsa_(astrology)

We had a discussion on Wulff's methods in a previous Skyscript thread:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7032&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


That`s even better,cause I haven`t much trust in the Hamburg school and its fancy theories.Kraft and Wullf seemed to know their job.
Thanks for the interesting link. When I read Kraft`s book I`ll post any interesting stuff I find. I think the book isn`t available in english
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2791
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrocorreia, hopefully you find some useful information about the mechanics of kraffts prediction in your readings. i look forward to hearing about what you find...


maybe adb messed up and they ought to have said hamburg school, but it says cosmobiology, not hamburg school... regardless, the use of midpoints is standard in both ideologies.. cosmobiology dispensed with the hypothetical planets but worked with midpoints, an essential part to it. working with a 90 and 45 degree wheel was another essential part of it as i understand it. i am not a historian, but reinhold ebertin aside from writing cosi, wrote many other books elaborating on the use of midpoints with the 90 degree wheel/dial..

here are two wikipedia links to reinhold ebertin - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhold_Ebertin

and cosmobiology - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmobiology

james_m wrote:

" He was the author of a number of books in French and German. Krafft was one of the originators of Cosmobiology."

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Krafft,_Karl_Ernst
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the ADB entry has got things confused.

From the Van Berkel article again:

Quote:
In the twenties, Krafft tried to demonstrate by means of statistic research that within families certain astrological patterns were present at birth and at death. Further, he did research upon the horoscopes of musicians in order to demonstrate that certain astrological patterns constantly were present. In 1923, research results were published in the brochure Influences cosmiques su l'individu humain; in 1939, he published his research results in the book Traité d'Astro-Biologie. In the course of the years, Krafft acquired a certain reputation as an astrologer, able to predict. In the beginning of the thirties, he developed a number of theories with the collective noun Typokosmie, on which he gave lectures in countless cities in Switzerland and Germany.


Ebertin didn't publish COSI until 1940. Krafft was certainly motivated by a scientific, research orientated approach like the Hamburg School. However, his area of interest seems to have been around character or typology , family and professions. I think the ADB linkage to Cosmobiology might be an error and stems from the simple confusion that Krafft used the similar sounding term Astrobiology in his epic book. Although, its possible Ebertin may have picked up some ideas from Krafft. He certainly acknowledged his heavy influence from Alfred Witte.

Hopefully we will find out more on Krafft from astrocorreia once they have ploughed through his book. And do please keep us updated on whether Krafft did use midpoints or not.

Thanks

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2791
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

perhaps adb has it wrong.. regardless, i think it is safe to say astrologers are not like sheep.. not all of them have to adopt hypothetical planets and midpoints at the same time, or wait for the release of a book to be introduced to a technique they might find useful, especially if they have an ongoing interest in astrology.. the parallels with astrology today are interesting.. do i sign up and become a hellenistic astrologer and make sure i got all of it figured out and follow it all according to how it is supposed to be done, or do i improvise? some will take one approach and some the other, with lots doing a bit of both..

in the meantime, i hope we find out more on the basis for his prediction..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4954
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
perhaps adb has it wrong.. regardless, i think it is safe to say astrologers are not like sheep.. not all of them have to adopt hypothetical planets and midpoints at the same time, or wait for the release of a book to be introduced to a technique they might find useful, especially if they have an ongoing interest in astrology.. the parallels with astrology today are interesting.. do i sign up and become a hellenistic astrologer and make sure i got all of it figured out and follow it all according to how it is supposed to be done, or do i improvise? some will take one approach and some the other, with lots doing a bit of both..


I was just showing a direct link to Ebertin in developing Cosmobiology looked unlikely. Krafft had adopted his own quite individual approach as early as the 1920s when he was still living in Switzerland. But I am sure he would have encountered many astrologers following the Hamburg School in Germany. Whether he applied any of their methods remains an open question.

German astrology in this period was quite diverse and there were many ideas around.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated