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saturn-pluto conjunction 2020

 
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 5:43 pm    Post subject: saturn-pluto conjunction 2020 Reply with quote

i was reading ben dykes book 'astrology of the world 11' the past while. inside is mentioned that not all aries ingress charts are equal and that the ingress data off the time of jupiter-saturn conjunction would hold more significance. i thought this was an interesting idea and worthwhile consideration..

i like to think that if astrologers like abu ma'shar or masha'allah were around today they would also be considering other important planetary combos..

i plan on commenting more on these charts, but for the time being, below are 2 charts - 1 for saturn-pluto conjunction timed to 4:59pm jan 12 2020 for london uk.. in neil f michelsens book 'tables of planetary phenomena' page 103 offers the same data with a slightly earlier time of 4:23pm... not sure why, but it seems to me it is more exact about a 1/2 hour later.. i see no other time when this conjunction happens via retrograde motion of either planet. the 2nd chart is an aries ingress chart for london set for 2020 as well..


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amymaddalozzo



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
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Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 1:19 pm    Post subject: saturn pluto Reply with quote

James Very interesting My late father was born with a Saturn/pluto conjunction in early cancer. Don't know his time of birth, but this natal conjunction was activated when he started showing signs of kidney cancer, years after he died, it was activated when my mother died. The conjunction in 2020 does not seem to activate my chart, but it does activate my late husband's. This conjunction is also opposed the United states natal pluto--no matter which chart you use. As you know, ray merriman is very negative about the future of the Us for the next 5 years or so. AMY
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi amy,

thanks for your comments.. i am focused on mundane astrology with this, but i am sure there may be some direct connections for individuals who have this combo highlighted in their chart in some way.

here are a couple of the other saturn/pluto conjunctions from the past hundred years or so..

1982


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1947


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1914/1915

there were 3 conjunctions of sa/pl due retrograde motion..

here is the first one

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the opposition dates in the last century are
- feb 17, july 8 and ec 13 1931 between 19 and 21 cap.

april 23rd and aug 17/1965 approx 15 pisces, feb 20/66 17 pisces

aug 5 and nov 2 2001 12 gemini and 13 gemini, may 26/02 16 gemini 36
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quote from ben dykes book "astrology of the world 11" which in turn is a translation from masha'allah's book 'scito horam introitus' - page 238 in dykes book - "chapter 61 "if in a revolution of the year you saw a thing about which you had fear, see if this coincides with a conjunction of saturn and jupiter in that same year: it will be more harsh and worse. 2. and if it did not coincide with one, it will be easier." and from page 121 of the same book "chapter 23. if you wished to turn the years of the world in which one should have fear, see whether there is a conjunction of saturn and jupiter in that same year: which if there were one, it will be more evil; and if there were not one, it will be easier. see page 121 chapter 23 in b dykes astrology of the world 11 for more details.

below i've posted the (next) jupiter-saturn conjunction which also happens in 2020 while i build a theme around all this and try to draw some conclusions on all of it over the course of time..

i want to draw attention to a few similarities to some of these charts.. the nodal axis in the saturn-pluto conjunction in 2020 at approx 7 cancer/capricorn is very close to the nodal axis in the previous sa-pl conjunction of 1982 at approx 6 cancer/capricorn.. they are both a few degrees off the zodiac degree of the 1914 saturn-pluto conjunction at 2 cancer..



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james_m



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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:43 pm    Post subject: saturn-pluto conjunction Reply with quote

here is an interesting link on this topic for anyone interested..

http://www.lunarplanner.com/Saturn-Opp-Uranus/Saturn-Pluto-history.html

and this link, which is more to the point perhaps..

http://www.lunarplanner.com/2020/index.html
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amymaddalozzo



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 53

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a fairly pessimistic view of the 2020 conjunction
If the next president does unite this country, we will fall apart and separate into several countries. Even if the next president unites the country, it will be by a war. James, by the way, the tax bill will not be signed into law until January. Maybe it will get signed when we have all those planets in Capricorn. Amy
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Rocko



Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 465

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for raising this James. People have been talking about this a lot.

Vicki points out that the Heliocentric Nodes of Pluto and Saturn are also around the 20°-22° Capricorn-Cancer axis.

I wonder if anybody else has experience of these Nodes adding "Vim" to activities around this area ?

H
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
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Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow James thanks for posting all these charts. Great stuff !
We're 2 years off and I think this thread could go to several pages ! Like you & Amy I think this conjunction is a very big deal indeed and it ain't good ! There is so much to say about it. I never thought I'd be posting on Christmas Day but then I'm not the cook !!

Anyway I was interested in the history of these conjunctions. As you say James the ancient astrologers would have considered them to be significant too had they known about Pluto. I looked them up to see if I could find any pattern with the elements as with Jupiter/Saturn. Here are a few starting with 1883 leaving out the double conjunctions :-

22nd May 1883 29 Taurus 16 EARTH
4th Oct 1914 2 Cancer 14 WATER
11th Aug 1947 13 Leo 07 FIRE
8th Nov 1982 27 Libra 36 AIR
12th Jan 2020 22 Capricorn 46 EARTH
15th June 2053 14 Pisces 30 WATER
8th April 2086 19 Aries 54 FIRE
12th Aug 2117 21 Taurus 28 EARTH
10th July 2149 21 Gemini 18 AIR
8th Aug 2181 27Capricorn EARTH

Well I thought there may be a pattern until 2117 rather spoilt it but then Saturn/Jupiter conjunctions aren't always in sequence.

Now for an interesting fact - There hasn't been a Saturn/Pluto conjunction in Capricorn since 3rd Jan 1518 at 4 Capricorn 20. History of the time? Protestant Reformation - Copernican revolution.

Saturn/Pluto is the explosive breakdown of the established order.
That 1518 conj. represented a challenge to the Roman church and its dogma re the Geocentric universe.

It could be argued we might see something similar with 2020 with ultra powerful effect. The conjunction occurs midway between their respective south nodes. It also falls on the star Beta Pavonis (peacock) which shows a connection to religion and an explosive one at that.

Something is happening with the Vatican which is relevant to the 2018 stellium thread. I will post there later.

Of course War, as always, will be tied up with this. There are significant transits to the US chart, Trump, Saudi Arabia and Israel. I haven't looked at other nations' charts.

Saturn/Pluto has been regarded as indicating a War cycle. Since humanity (and others) have been at war since the dawn of time I don't see a cycle and that 1947 conj. is rather inconvenient!

Another thing - I see also a link to the Uranus/Neptune conjunction of 1993 which was a triple conj. at 18 - 19 Capricorn. In my view many disturbed individuals were born at this time and became the terrorists of our day. 19 Capricorn being close to Pluto's South node and opposite Pollux which Liber Hermetis described as "they will be harmed in the head". Such individuals must have been harmed in the head by poisonous Islamic fundamentalism - some must have been addicted to drugs which may have rendered them psychotic (Neptune) and some poor people lost their heads literally to these monsters.

Many many layers of interpretation to this Saturn/Pluto conj.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amy, rocko and vicki - merry christmas!!!

i don't feel like getting all dark on christmas day, lol..

it seems astrologers have a propensity towards darkness.. well, darkness is a part of life too!

amy, in answer to your question - i don't know how much merit i would put in the nodal axis data off the outer planets. i would like to say something more definitive, but i can't based on what research i have done on this.

vicki - i posted this thread a few years ago.. it was only yesterday that i found those links that i thought i would put them on this thread to add to the topic of this upcoming conjunction.. yes - i think the conjunction is important.

i think i personally have to be careful in reading too much into recent history, thinking i might know the shape astrological events can play out. i have discovered over the course of my life following astrology, that life is always full of unexpected twists and surprises that make prediction extremely difficult, especially with something so general as a conjunction.. in this instance there is a lot of history to back up the turbulence associated with these two planets saturn and pluto forming into hard aspects with one another.. and, as those links i posted yesterday point out - they square onto eris which i hadn't really been thinking about much up until yesterday..

i am discovering or rediscovering the wisdom in that motto - 'history is written by the winners'.. i can think of one recent example where one could describe the world event very differently depending on one's relation to the event itself.. i am thinking of crimea being taken away from ukraine, or the people of crimea realizing that they didn't want to belong to ukraine anymore... one can see how an event gets characterized differently, depending on how the event is perceived... and in this example it is very polarized..

who gets to write the history? i have been reading margarat macmilans book 'paris 1919' - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26348.Paris_1919
it's a history book on the treaty of versailles and much more..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

it got me to looking into timothy snyders books - one in particular - 'bloodlands'... a friend of mine has a copy and i may borrow it when they are finished.. i discovered another book called 'blood lies' by grover furr which essentially challenges all the supposed facts in bloodlands...

it reminded me of that saying 'history is written by the winners'.. i don't know if that is really a great motto regarding the nature of understanding history better, but it leaves one wondering of how things may or may not have happened as authors and people recollect..

and how does this relate to the saturn-pluto conjunction coming up? well i think it is complicated! it is difficult to fathom what the energies of these planets might bring inside the wider picture of everything here at this point.. we certainly do seem to be moving towards a crisis point on the planet ecologically and environmentally.. is this the death of the planet that we are witnessing and while some scientists have proclaimed something along these lines, might it be based on enough facts to be substantiated in some way? or, is there some sort of alternative path that remains hidden that will only reveal itself at a later date? or perhaps some are perceptive enough to see the path at present?

in reading 'paris 1919' , especially the conclusion of the book - one can see how not every statesman or women at the time agreed with the plan for peace drawn up in that event that was the aftermath of ww1.. in fact, there was a lot of disagreement over it before and after.. and yet decisions were made and people were made to live with them, regardless of the alternatives that could have been taken..

on this christmas day i pray for a resolution to the war and hardship that people on planet earth face daily.. i am blessed to live in a beautiful part of the world not caught up in war or suffering, although the number of street people is on the increase and people in my local community are more in need of assistance then they might have been 5 or 10 years ago.. something isn't working for many in the present system we have.. how it changes, i have no idea.. any positive thing i can see to do - i will try to do it! hopefully others are doing the same!

vicki - thank you for articulating all those saturn-pluto dates with zodiac places!
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Rocko



Joined: 05 Apr 2013
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Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James has "gone for it" a bit so I'll add some points showing how I approach things.

1/ When all else fails score it. Well an inconjunction between Saturn and Pluto would bring Earthquakes I feel, and I think have seen that in action.

What is Pluto in Capricorn ? Saturn. You could see this as an attempt by Saturn in Rulership to reign in some Dark Power - DRK ?

2/ Recently we had a trine between Saturn and Uranus. Literally for years I couldn't get my head around it but then it dawned on me that it was sort of the meeting of the two Worlds - the conscious and the unconscious.

So for me still I haven't been spooked by this Conjunction. I think I need to think more about what Pluto is up to in his journey across Capricorn.

We know when Pluto entered Capricorn in late 2008 the World sort of ALL FELL DOWN.

I think Credit costs peaked in late Oct 2008. That was mainly between Banks.

A lot of stuff to think about.

H


Last edited by Rocko on Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi rocko,

on the question of what does pluto in cap mean, i think it might represent the tendency to use gov't power to lord it over others.. a type of tyranny if you will.. perhaps usurping the gov't which is how i see corporations at this point - is a form of pluto in capricorn, although someone could argue this has been going on for longer then pluto in capricorn. things to do with mining, farming and agriculture might have a lot to do with capricorn.. pluto in this sign could indicate subversion of these practices and more.. perhaps the agri-corporations that are providing food for the masses might be jeopardizing our future on a basic level of food? the way i see it any institution that has been corrupted and has the possibility of being transformed, or re-generated might have to do with pluto traveling thru capricorn...

presently i view the mainstream media like a branch of the corporate rule and being used for propaganda to an extreme extent, which brings me to the topic of north korea that you mention... i would say it is more the opposite.. it seems to my eyes that the destabilizing country at this moment in time is the usa more then north korea, in spite of all the western propaganda that runs the opposite..

i think the idea of pluto operating as a deceptive presence in the case of the federal reserve and the world financial system is a good tie in myself, although one might think of that as more pluto in scorpio then pluto in cap.. the fed reserve chart i like to work with has sun at 1 cap being opposed by pluto at 0 cancer.. dec 23 1913 - this is the date the gov't passed the federal reserve act.. but you make a good observation of plutos entry into capricorn which loosely coincides with lehman brothers collapsing sept 2008.. actually it was a bit later when pluto went into cap, but fairly close..

one could consider power that has been held for a long time ( long time - capricorn) being in jeopardy with this transit as i see it.. that would include the house of saud, the queen, mugabe is gone - to be replaced by just what i am not sure), and outdated power structures that no longer serve the public.. i guess this is a controversial idea, but i think it could apply.. the financial system is a big one though and does tie in as i see it.. money, although thought of as a taurus/scorpio possessions kind of topic, is also the concrete means of people for a type of exchange.. financial exchange is happening globally.. pluto in cap might have a direct connection to it..

just casually looking over some of ceo carter, hs green and raphaels comments in the book 'mundane astrology' i note from carter a comment on the similarity between eclipses and conjunctions in terms of how they express.. also - last decan of capricorn seems to connect to those in power coming down, according to raphael or green - i am not sure which one said it.. it was actually raphael who said it in connection with solar eclipses... - causes the death of some king, and also sedition.- egypt just popped into my head.. it is presently a type of military dictatorship as i understand it and i have no idea just how stable it is either.. oh well - i want to stay on the topic of saturn-pluto conjunction here!

perhaps some of these governing bodies that oversee much of international affairs connects directly to capricorn? how about the UN, world bank, IMF and these types of organizations? are they ruled by pisces, aquarius or capricorn? what about world health organization? just curious.. anyone have any ideas on what sign they would mostly connect with and why if so?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I think of Pluto-Saturn I often think of financial and resource constraints. My guess is the US will go through an economic hardship and possible stock market collapse, etc., especially since it opposes the Cancer planets in the July 4th, 1776 chart and squares Saturn in Libra. I am American, so I have a photographic memory of my country's chart. I am sure it will impact other countries in various ways where it touches them. Perhaps a particular resource in general might become more scarce, such as due to global warming.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
When I think of Pluto-Saturn I often think of financial and resource constraints. My guess is the US will go through an economic hardship and possible stock market collapse, etc., especially since it opposes the Cancer planets in the July 4th, 1776 chart and squares Saturn in Libra. I am American, so I have a photographic memory of my country's chart. I am sure it will impact other countries in various ways where it touches them. Perhaps a particular resource in general might become more scarce, such as due to global warming.


I wonder what that Saturn Pluto conjunction is doing to India's chart? There was a news article a couple of weeks ago about a 63 year old Indian lady who was getting a pension, and I was fascinated that India has rolled out old age pensions for everybody, because their country's economy has grown so much, and this is very recent, over something like the past five years. Then yesterday there was a news article that said India' economy is set to overtake the UK's economy next year.

Not sure about how this conjunction will affect this chart, if it is the correct chart for India?

http://www.dominantstar.com/a_india1.htm
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Arvind



Joined: 07 Nov 2016
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Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Chart of India Reply with quote

Fleur: That chart works very well for India, based on the time of midnight on August 15, 1947 in Delhi when British rule ended.
Best Regards and Blessings,
~A.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tanit,

thanks for your comment on how this might impact the usa... hard to know.. i am not as trusting of the national charts for the usa as there are so many to choose from... however, i do believe the general view of a pluto opposite the natal pluto found in most of the charts is relevant.. it feels like that to me with where the usa is today.. whether it comes out in the finances, i am inclined to believe it does.. so an important top or bottom in the stock and bond markets is very possible.. i sort of see this coming just based off international finance and politics at this point in time..

i am actually thinking about the symbolism for saturn, regardless what sign it is in.. to me a lot of the 12th house themes seem to resonate with saturn.. maybe that is why saturn is considered at home in the 12th, or something like that, that i have picked up over the years.. the idea of famine, wars, prison and suffering sure seem like saturn type possibilities to me.. how much of that changes with saturn in cap, i am not so sure..

fleur,


thanks for pointing out the close conjunction of saturn/pluto in indias chart.. as you note - india seems to be on an upswing economically.. maybe this coincides with the transit of pluto/saturn in the 8th house of the midnight chart? it bears watching for any country to have the conjunction by birth and how it will play out in current events.. another country with the conjunction of course is israel, although not as exact as indias..
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