16
Hi Sungem,
However if I'm going to accept (dictionary definition) as a tool, then I can't discard it simply because I don?t like the answer it gives.
If the tool (the dictionary definition) doesn't work any more and it's broken (doesn't have any relevant meaning in modern usage), then yes, people discard it. It becomes an anachronism and falls into disuse. People generally like tools that work. Language and individual words need to change to reflect changing values, and values change over time.

The definition of fate is a good example of this. Fate would be more useful if it had an update. Things that are beyond our control (fate) in the modern world are more a question of natural laws than they are of supernatural powers. This replacement has already happened.

The resistance to this concept is because we would have to concede that science is actually the study of fate (things beyond our control = natural laws). It's simply a question of restoring consistency between current values and language. It may be difficult to get our heads around this modest suggestion because we have lived with the inconsistency for so long.

KennethM

17
Point taken. However I still think there's a lot of good stuff in there and it's still one of my favourite books. :)
Language and individual words need to change to reflect changing values, and values change over time.
I think that's why it's in continual update. Maybe they just missed fate this time round. :)
Thank you Kenneth for helping to stretch my mind and wrap it around the subject of FFW.

18
Oh come on! You can't concede as easily as that. I was expecting more. It's just starting to get interesting. :)

Doesn't anyone think I'm stretching things too far?

KennethM

20
Hi again Sungem
I can only answer with:
If you are content to accept that earthly life is the sum total of physical existence, then so be it. But it is conceivable that the spirit which inhabits your present earthly body has existed before, with not necessarily that (same) facet of spirit.
...and appreciate that you may indeed belong to the first group.
Actually I don't belong to either group. Both are merely theories, neither capable of proof or disproof. We won't know for sure until we snuff it :)
It's immatertial really whether we believe the same thing or not
Or, indeed, whether we feel the need to believe anything at all.
- in that I think that some people seek a structure within which to relate their life experiences, others don't.
And still others who spend a long time seeking, then eventually realise that there is no point/meaning/purpose to life (or life experiences) whereupon they breathe a sigh of relief and just relax and live it.
Sometimes when finding an idea it relates to the heart whispers "yes!" - for others perhaps it never does, or at least does so differently. :)
Exactly! :wink:
But I like TS' response nonetheless :D
but for what it?s worth, belief extends such points beyond the span of one life ? probably has something to do with re-cycling.
LOL! Visions of a soul recycling plant somewhere "out there". :D Reminds me a little of Plato's Myth of Er. Have you read that? Great fun!

Cheers,
Fi

21
Hi Ficina
Actually I don't belong to either group...
Or, indeed, whether we feel the need to believe anything at all.
Interesting - if you don't believe we live until we die - and you don't think there's anything else... what's that called? An interesting standpoint, to be sure... self-sufficiency! :D
And still others who spend a long time seeking, then eventually realise that there is no point/meaning/purpose to life (or life experiences) whereupon they breathe a sigh of relief and just relax and live it.
Perhaps there are others who can also relax and live life within a belief structure, perhaps in fact the structure allows the relaxing?

How does that saying go? "The heart has its reasons, whereof reason knows nothing". And this includes, one supposes, a lack of response as well.
LOL! Visions of a soul recycling plant somewhere "out there".
Absolutely! And yes, it's an apt story!
We won't know for sure until we snuff it
Ain't it the truth! :wink:

22
if you don't believe we live until we die - and you don't think there's anything else... what's that called? An interesting standpoint, to be sure... self-sufficiency! :D
How about immortality? 8) Seriously though, I'm not saying there's nothing else - there may well be. What I'm saying is I don't know and personally don't feel the need to "believe". The reincarnation/recycling theory certainly makes a lot of sense and it will be interesting to find out, eventually, if it is correct.
Perhaps there are others who can also relax and live life within a belief structure, perhaps in fact the structure allows the relaxing?
Good point.
How does that saying go? "The heart has its reasons, whereof reason knows nothing".
I think that saying is usually applied to someone who falls in love with the "wrong" person. :wink: So are you saying your belief structure is irrational?
And this includes, one supposes, a lack of response as well.
Not quite sure what you mean there.

23
Hi Ficina
How about immortality?
:lol: Love it! (Not sure I?d want to do it ? but I love the answer just the same)
Seriously though, I'm not saying there's nothing else - there may well be. What I'm saying is I don't know and personally don't feel the need to "believe".
If you have ever been in a crisis situation (mentally, physically or emotionally ? let?s leave spiritual out of it for the moment) which appeared to be, or you thought was, due to circumstances outside and beyond your control, and still never searched for a meaning beyond the hardcore reality which you had to face down and deal with ? then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. For you.

We all have to live on this earth, and deal with the realities of this life. Personally when things happened that weren?t in my game plan, I just kept asking, and in many ways am still asking, ?why??

To come back with ?why not? may be a smart answer but I also think it is a copout, avoidance if you will, and I am not having a go at you, this paragraph is a separate thought. (So why do natural laws exist? ? Who put them there? Why do they work consistently, inexorably, through time without end? What did I do to kick this off? - and hey! For me it doesn't have to be a crisis, it could be anything - I'm sure I didn't plan half the stuff that happens to me! Who's in charge here anyway? I had something else entirely in mind! Why can't I look like Kathleen Turner?)

There is a possibility that it is only through crisis that we create/change/expand/develop ? (and while I would be tempted to use the word spiritually here because that is what I think) ? let?s use the words core values.

When things are going swimmingly we enjoy ourselves. We may increase our income, education, family, job, community status and possessions (new car, house etc). We are alive and joyous in our fortunate circumstances. Hopefully most of these decisions were made with appropriate involvement, care and thought and make us nice to be around.

However ? does the above ever create the sort of value-changes that might result for someone who loses their job and consequently their house, family and friends and ends up in a homeless shelter? Or a woman who leads a crisis free life until mid-thirties and then ends up in successive physically abusive relationships for the next 15 years? Or an ordinary couple with 3 children to whom nothing extraordinary happens until the mother and all 3 children are killed simultaneously in a car accident or fire?

Yes, of course core values will probably change with the fortunate circumstances - but are they questioned (soul-searched?) in quite the same way as the adverse circumstances might provoke in some people?

Bear in mind I've used extreme examples and for many people the decisions or incidents which kick off soul-searching value changes are a great deal less important than those above. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

It seems to me you have an open mind on the subject Ficina, :) and are entirely comfortable leaving the details to be sorted out at a later date, if ever. Maybe. Then so be it, it isn?t urgent for you. I not only believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I actually do accept that others opinions can differ from mine? which is why you will not find me trying to persuade you to my point of view in this case. Will I discuss it? Of course I will. Will I argue I?m right and someone else is wrong wrong? No, I hope not. Everyone comes to an understanding they can live with at a time that is right for them, in my case I suppose this is a belief in the survival and continual evolution of the spirit. However it also allows that some don?t reach a conclusion, which is what I think you are saying ? that the jury?s still out.
The reincarnation/recycling theory certainly makes a lot of sense and it will be interesting to find out, eventually, if it is correct.
Uh-huh. :)
Sungem: How does that saying go? "The heart has its reasons, whereof reason knows nothing".
Ficina: I think that saying is usually applied to someone who falls in love with the "wrong" person.
I was actually extrapolating it to apply to my previous quote and your response?
Sungem: Sometimes when finding an idea it relates to the heart whispers "yes!" - for others perhaps it never does, or at least does so differently.

Ficina: Exactly!
S: And this includes, one supposes, a lack of response as well.

F: Not quite sure what you mean there.
Again, simply extending the above.
So are you saying your belief structure is irrational?
LOL! :lol: Quite possibly! Who knows? I could just be babbling again!! :lala (<-- I?ve no idea what ?lala happy? means ? to me this is ROTFL ? I do actually take a lot of things at face value, not everything's D&M :shock: ).

Cheers,
Sungem

24
?I suppose this is a belief in the survival and continual evolution of the spirit.?
Where there?s a need to be, love (lief) usually follows.

Reason is the faculty of mind ? organized conscious thought is a part of the mind.

Then there?s also mind over matter ? mind as a state of be-ing ? Lol!.

Not forgetting, where there?s a need to be ...

Just seems to keep going round and round.
?The heart has its reasons ??
Hearts do have a way of keeping the currents of life and love flowing round.

So does this mean life and love are irrational? :shock:

Ah well, if I recall rightly so is 'pi' and I hear it?s been proved transcendental. :D

Best wishes,
TS

25
How about immortality?
:lol: Love it! (Not sure I?d want to do it ? but I love the answer just the same)
:) Not sure I'd want to do it either -sounds exhausting, doesn't it?
To come back with ?why not? may be a smart answer but I also think it is a copout, avoidance if you will, and I am not having a go at you, this paragraph is a separate thought. (So why do natural laws exist? ? Who put them there? Why do they work consistently, inexorably, through time without end? What did I do to kick this off? - and hey! For me it doesn't have to be a crisis, it could be anything - I'm sure I didn't plan half the stuff that happens to me! Who's in charge here anyway? I had something else entirely in mind! Why can't I look like Kathleen Turner?)
Various quotes come to mind here. These things are sent to try us. Life happens when we're making other plans. If you want to make the gods laugh, tell them your plans. Of course I have thought about the "why" and I think it's quite likely we reap what we sow. The karmic explanation would seem to make sense. What goes around comes around. Having said that though, it could all be random couldn't it? Again, there's no actual proof either way. It's not so much a case of what one chooses to believe as this apparent "need" to believe in a reason or cause. Even if what happens is out of our control, we always have the choice (freewill?) as to how we react to it and deal with it.
Bear in mind I've used extreme examples and for many people the decisions or incidents which kick off soul-searching value changes are a great deal less important than those above. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.
Yes, they are rather extreme examples and in some cases choice (albeit difficult) is involved in allowing certain circumstances to continue. However, I agree of course that it is the tough experiences which provoke the soul-searching, not to mention the good old AFOG! (Was that mentioned in this forum or another? I can't remember, but you know what I mean.)
I not only believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I actually do accept that others opinions can differ from mine? which is why you will not find me trying to persuade you to my point of view in this case. Will I discuss it? Of course I will. Will I argue I?m right and someone else is wrong wrong? No, I hope not.
I'm of the same mind, even though I know I do have a tendency to think (but try not to say) that I'm right and someone else is wrong. I'm working on that though cos that attitude can spoil a good discussion :) I do enjoy challenging people's beliefs though, as long as they don't get over-sensitive and take offence. Some people can't bear to have their beliefs challenged, often because they cling to them, often out of fear unfortunately.
However it also allows that some don?t reach a conclusion, which is what I think you are saying ? that the jury?s still out.
That's partly what I'm saying but what I'm also saying, or asking perhaps, is why is it important? Why does it matter? Obviously for some people, it does matter. But the serenity prayer comes to mind here - you know, accepting the things you can't change, courage to change the things you can and the wisdom to know the difference :)
I could just be babbling again!! :lala (<-- I?ve no idea what ?lala happy? means ? to me this is ROTFL ? I do actually take a lot of things at face value, not everything's D&M :shock: ).
LOL! No, I don't think you're babbling at all. You make a lot of sense and I've always enjoyed these types of discussions. I know I'm going to kick myself when you tell me, but what does D&M mean?

Cheers,
Fi

26
Hi TS
Where there?s a need to be, love (lief) usually follows.
I'd be interested to know where you think this "need" comes from? Being is simply being. Where does need come into it? Or am I missing your point? :)

Cheers,
Fi

27
I'd be interested to know where you think this "need" comes from? Being is simply being. Where does need come into it? Or am I missing your point?
One of my favourite quotes:

"I don't believe in anything." (Krishnamurti)

Cheers.