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Fate and Free Will
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ficina,

I’ve followed your comments with a lot of interest and agreement. If someone bases their actions on the belief in karma, ie, as you put it “You do something "good" and something "good" happens to you”, it’s really a self-centred motivation of expecting some sort of return – so where is the ‘goodness’ in it?

It’s much better to do something for the pleasure it gives you to do it. And I don’t believe that a realisation that there may be nothing after death would fundamentally change anyone’s actions, because we can only be what we are, and few people feel good doing something that their inner self tells them is wrong.
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 360

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
… you just know I don’t believe you


Okee dokee.

I believe that everything is a working hypothesis, a starting point rather than a conclusion.

Someone else on this thread asked the question, "How do we know that we really know anything?"

Exactly.

I included the Tweedie quote because it was about nothingness. But I can't even say that I believe in nothingness, can I? Belief is irrelevant, experience is beyond belief. And all of it is still just a working hypothesis, considered from the plane of cognition.

So there! Laughing
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Ficina
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 1807
Location: Kent, England

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb

Quote:
I’ve followed your comments with a lot of interest and agreement.


Smile

Quote:
If someone bases their actions on the belief in karma, ie, as you put it “You do something "good" and something "good" happens to you”, it’s really a self-centred motivation of expecting some sort of return – so where is the ‘goodness’ in it?


Yes, that is one of the potential pitfalls inherent in the reaping and sowing scenario. If one doesn't have a Good Intention (i.e. an altruistic one), then it probably won't work! It's simply amassing karmic brownie points or storing up treasures in heaven. On the other hand if it means people avoid doing "bad" things so that something "bad" doesn't happen to them, then that can only be a Good Thing in the long run, however self-interested the motivation. In that recent TV poll on the Modern Top 10 Commandments, number 1 turned out to be "Do unto others etc", although I'd have preferred it to have been "Don't do unto others etc".

Quote:
It’s much better to do something for the pleasure it gives you to do it.


Not to mention the pleasure it gives to others. Or, better still, to do it for its own sake. But I'm getting into saintly territory here Sick It's very difficult not to feel pleased with yourself when you've done something good.

Quote:
And I don’t believe that a realisation that there may be nothing after death would fundamentally change anyone’s actions, because we can only be what we are, and few people feel good doing something that their inner self tells them is wrong.


Very true.
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Ficina
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 1807
Location: Kent, England

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe that everything is a working hypothesis, a starting point rather than a conclusion.


Is it true that no philosophical argument ever reaches a conclusion? I've heard it said that that is the most common reason for Philosophy students to give up the course.

Quote:
But I can't even say that I believe in nothingness, can I?


If nothingness exists then there's no need to believe in it. It simply is. (Working hypothesis of course.) Wink

Quote:
experience is beyond belief.


Subjectivity being the common denominator. Is belief usually dependent upon experience?

Quote:
So there! Laughing


Laughing
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb

Quote:
If someone bases their actions on the belief in karma, ie, as you put it “You do something "good" and something "good" happens to you”, it’s really a self-centred motivation of expecting some sort of return – so where is the ‘goodness’ in it?


If someone’s really living like this they need to get a grip … or a life … or another hobby! Very Happy


Hi Ficina

England has television polls to rewrite the 10 Commandments. The mind boggles.

Quote:
Say, one day it's proved to be cause and effect? Fine. It's proved to be random? Also, fine. I don't need to believe either way. What real difference does it make to us here and now?


Not much really …

Quote:
Some people need a belief system/structure in order to feel comfortable; others don't.

Didn't I say that about 3 posts ago? Confused

Quote:
AFOG = remind me again?
Another F****** Opportunity for Growth

Ah yes … Patrick Curry ... ain't it the truth Smile

Quote:
Andrew: I believe that everything is a working hypothesis, a starting point rather than a conclusion.

Yes, that’ll do … I’ll adopt that – momentarily. I’m a work in progress. Now why didn’t you say that weeks ago and save me the brain strain?
Quote:
Yes! I think we digressed a little but with Gemini and Sag, that's understandable

Yes, and I’m a Gemini with a Sag ascendant. I have the attention span of a gnat. And I’ve been on this for … hang on while I look … 2 weeks!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
I've heard it said that that is the most common reason for Philosophy students to give up the course.

I am in complete sympathy with them. Sad
Quote:
Discovering Taoism was the release moment for me.

Ri-iii-ight ... Rolling Eyes so you don’t believe in anything except a major Chinese religion. Leery
Quote:
Fi (who is getting back to her footie charts for a little light relief)

Gawd! … next you’ll be telling me you believe in astrology! Secret

Thank you linesmen, thank you ball boys – I’m done! To muddy a metaphor … this goose is cooked! Laughing

Cheers,
Sungem
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S.
A much more erudite discussion of "As above, so below" can be seen at:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=517 Smile
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Fi,

Quote:
“I'd be interested to know where you think this "need" comes from?”


Need/want/will … why does anything come to “be” , or is brought into “being”?

Belief … be + lief (love, or dear etc). And ‘lief’ as a lexigram for ‘life’?

“Lief:-O.E. leof "dear," from P.Gmc. *leubo- (cf. O.N. ljutr, O.Fris. liaf, O.H.G. liob, Ger. lieb, Goth. liufs "dear, beloved"), from PIE base *leubh- "love" (see love). A most useful word, now, alas, all but extinct. Want and love are overworked and misused to fill the hole left in the language when this word faded in 17c.”

Belief = be + love; be + dear … or lief/life … be + life.

Where there’s ‘be’ … there’s usually a lief-love-dear-life somewhere around.

Quote:
“Being is simply being.”


Yes, and something occurred at some point that brought "being" into "being".

Andrew, I like this one too:

Quote:
"I don't believe in anything." (Krishnamurti)


A belief in no thing … perhaps the no thing that is one thing?

Quote:
“TS – whatever it is you’re taking, I think you need to stop…”


Aaargh, does that mean no more truly transcendental pies (pi's)!!! crying
Well, guess that puts paid to pi in the sky … but sometimes it’s good to look up, yes? Confused

Quote:
“Fi (who is getting back to her footie charts for a little light relief)”


Oops, maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned anything about pies.

Quote:
“… this goose is cooked!”


Uh-oh. Isn’t there a law around somewhere that prohibits this? Just a wild guess, but perhaps the cooked goose is more a phoenix in disguise …

Thanks Sungem. It’s been both illuminating and a joy. Very Happy

In appreciation,
TS
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Ficina
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 1807
Location: Kent, England

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sungem

Quote:
England has television polls to rewrite the 10 Commandments. The mind boggles.


LOL! Yeah, apparently they reckoned the original commandments were irrelevant nowadays. They kept in a few of the old ones, but not many.

Quote:
so you don’t believe in anything except a major Chinese religion.

Gawd! … next you’ll be telling me you believe in astrology!


Lala Happy Perish the thought! As Noel Tyl said, astrology isn't something to believe in, it's something to know about. I reckon that applies to Taoism too (which is really more a philosophy than a religion).

Quote:
… this goose is cooked!


Very Happy Thanks for the discussion, Sungem.

Cheers,
Fi
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Ficina
Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 1807
Location: Kent, England

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi TS

Quote:
A most useful word, now, alas, all but extinct. Want and love are overworked and misused to fill the hole left in the language when this word faded in 17c


Very true. Interesting etymology TS, thanks Smile

Quote:
and something occurred at some point that brought "being" into "being".


Yes, and theories abound as to what that something might have been.

Quote:
A belief in no thing … perhaps the no thing that is one thing?


Ah, but he said he didn't believe in anything, not that he believed in nothing. A subtle difference, I think.

Quote:
“Fi (who is getting back to her footie charts for a little light relief)”

Oops, maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned anything about pies.


It's ok, I can burn more than one pie at a time Very Happy

Cheers,
Fi
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 360

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ah, but he said he didn't believe in anything, not that he believed in nothing. A subtle difference, I think.


You're a clever one, Ficina! Very Happy
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Fi,
Quote:
Ah, but he said he didn't believe in anything,"


... and if one doesn't believe in 'any' thing, one believes in 'no' thing ... the subtle difference being?

Quote:
It's ok, I can burn more than one pie at a time


Lala Happy ... yes, have occasionally managed that myself - might want to leave a window open!

Cheers,
TS
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Ficina
Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 1807
Location: Kent, England

Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
... and if one doesn't believe in 'any' thing, one believes in 'no' thing ... the subtle difference being?


Too subtle for me, TS Confused I think my comment sounded more clever than it actually was, Andrew Wink

Fi
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Fi,

Just a working hypothesis Smile but perhaps the subtle difference lies in the nature of the ‘thing’.

And my apologies, where I wrote: “A belief in no thing … perhaps the no thing that is one thing?” was really intended as:
“A belief in no thing … perhaps the no thing that is the ‘one’ that surpasses all things?”

Have I muddied the waters further? Confused Again, my apologies if I have.
But it has been fun and I appreciated your sharing your thoughts … it can be enjoyable stretching the grey matter a little further (and so can dodging pi’s!) Leery

Warm regards,
TS. Very Happy
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