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Ficina,

I?ve followed your comments with a lot of interest and agreement. If someone bases their actions on the belief in karma, ie, as you put it ?You do something "good" and something "good" happens to you?, it?s really a self-centred motivation of expecting some sort of return ? so where is the ?goodness? in it?

It?s much better to do something for the pleasure it gives you to do it. And I don?t believe that a realisation that there may be nothing after death would fundamentally change anyone?s actions, because we can only be what we are, and few people feel good doing something that their inner self tells them is wrong.

32
? you just know I don?t believe you
Okee dokee.

I believe that everything is a working hypothesis, a starting point rather than a conclusion.

Someone else on this thread asked the question, "How do we know that we really know anything?"

Exactly.

I included the Tweedie quote because it was about nothingness. But I can't even say that I believe in nothingness, can I? Belief is irrelevant, experience is beyond belief. And all of it is still just a working hypothesis, considered from the plane of cognition.

So there! :lol:

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Hi Deb
I?ve followed your comments with a lot of interest and agreement.
:)
If someone bases their actions on the belief in karma, ie, as you put it ?You do something "good" and something "good" happens to you?, it?s really a self-centred motivation of expecting some sort of return ? so where is the ?goodness? in it?
Yes, that is one of the potential pitfalls inherent in the reaping and sowing scenario. If one doesn't have a Good Intention (i.e. an altruistic one), then it probably won't work! It's simply amassing karmic brownie points or storing up treasures in heaven. On the other hand if it means people avoid doing "bad" things so that something "bad" doesn't happen to them, then that can only be a Good Thing in the long run, however self-interested the motivation. In that recent TV poll on the Modern Top 10 Commandments, number 1 turned out to be "Do unto others etc", although I'd have preferred it to have been "Don't do unto others etc".
It?s much better to do something for the pleasure it gives you to do it.
Not to mention the pleasure it gives to others. Or, better still, to do it for its own sake. But I'm getting into saintly territory here :-sk It's very difficult not to feel pleased with yourself when you've done something good.
And I don?t believe that a realisation that there may be nothing after death would fundamentally change anyone?s actions, because we can only be what we are, and few people feel good doing something that their inner self tells them is wrong.
Very true.

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I believe that everything is a working hypothesis, a starting point rather than a conclusion.
Is it true that no philosophical argument ever reaches a conclusion? I've heard it said that that is the most common reason for Philosophy students to give up the course.
But I can't even say that I believe in nothingness, can I?
If nothingness exists then there's no need to believe in it. It simply is. (Working hypothesis of course.) :wink:
experience is beyond belief.
Subjectivity being the common denominator. Is belief usually dependent upon experience?
So there! :lol:
:lol:

35
Hi Deb
If someone bases their actions on the belief in karma, ie, as you put it ?You do something "good" and something "good" happens to you?, it?s really a self-centred motivation of expecting some sort of return ? so where is the ?goodness? in it?
If someone?s really living like this they need to get a grip ? or a life ? or another hobby! :D


Hi Ficina

England has television polls to rewrite the 10 Commandments. The mind boggles.
Say, one day it's proved to be cause and effect? Fine. It's proved to be random? Also, fine. I don't need to believe either way. What real difference does it make to us here and now?
Not much really ?
Some people need a belief system/structure in order to feel comfortable; others don't.
Didn't I say that about 3 posts ago? :?
AFOG = remind me again?
Another F****** Opportunity for Growth
Ah yes ? Patrick Curry ... ain't it the truth :)
Andrew: I believe that everything is a working hypothesis, a starting point rather than a conclusion.
Yes, that?ll do ? I?ll adopt that ? momentarily. I?m a work in progress. Now why didn?t you say that weeks ago and save me the brain strain?
Yes! I think we digressed a little but with Gemini and Sag, that's understandable
Yes, and I?m a Gemini with a Sag ascendant. I have the attention span of a gnat. And I?ve been on this for ? hang on while I look ? 2 weeks!!!!!!!!!
I've heard it said that that is the most common reason for Philosophy students to give up the course.
I am in complete sympathy with them. :(
Discovering Taoism was the release moment for me.
Ri-iii-ight ... :roll: so you don?t believe in anything except a major Chinese religion. :brows
Fi (who is getting back to her footie charts for a little light relief)

Gawd! ? next you?ll be telling me you believe in astrology! :sg

Thank you linesmen, thank you ball boys ? I?m done! To muddy a metaphor ? this goose is cooked! :lol:

Cheers,
Sungem

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Hello Fi,
?I'd be interested to know where you think this "need" comes from??
Need/want/will ? why does anything come to ?be? , or is brought into ?being??

Belief ? be + lief (love, or dear etc). And ?lief? as a lexigram for ?life??

?Lief:-O.E. leof "dear," from P.Gmc. *leubo- (cf. O.N. ljutr, O.Fris. liaf, O.H.G. liob, Ger. lieb, Goth. liufs "dear, beloved"), from PIE base *leubh- "love" (see love). A most useful word, now, alas, all but extinct. Want and love are overworked and misused to fill the hole left in the language when this word faded in 17c.?

Belief = be + love; be + dear ? or lief/life ? be + life.

Where there?s ?be? ? there?s usually a lief-love-dear-life somewhere around.
?Being is simply being.?
Yes, and something occurred at some point that brought "being" into "being".

Andrew, I like this one too:
"I don't believe in anything." (Krishnamurti)
A belief in no thing ? perhaps the no thing that is one thing?
?TS ? whatever it is you?re taking, I think you need to stop??
Aaargh, does that mean no more truly transcendental pies (pi's)!!! :-cry
Well, guess that puts paid to pi in the sky ? but sometimes it?s good to look up, yes? :???:
?Fi (who is getting back to her footie charts for a little light relief)?
Oops, maybe I shouldn?t have mentioned anything about pies.
?? this goose is cooked!?
Uh-oh. Isn?t there a law around somewhere that prohibits this? Just a wild guess, but perhaps the cooked goose is more a phoenix in disguise ?

Thanks Sungem. It?s been both illuminating and a joy. :D

In appreciation,
TS

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Hi Sungem
England has television polls to rewrite the 10 Commandments. The mind boggles.
LOL! Yeah, apparently they reckoned the original commandments were irrelevant nowadays. They kept in a few of the old ones, but not many.
so you don?t believe in anything except a major Chinese religion.

Gawd! ? next you?ll be telling me you believe in astrology!
:lala Perish the thought! As Noel Tyl said, astrology isn't something to believe in, it's something to know about. I reckon that applies to Taoism too (which is really more a philosophy than a religion).
? this goose is cooked!
:D Thanks for the discussion, Sungem.

Cheers,
Fi

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Hi TS
A most useful word, now, alas, all but extinct. Want and love are overworked and misused to fill the hole left in the language when this word faded in 17c
Very true. Interesting etymology TS, thanks :)
and something occurred at some point that brought "being" into "being".
Yes, and theories abound as to what that something might have been.
A belief in no thing ? perhaps the no thing that is one thing?
Ah, but he said he didn't believe in anything, not that he believed in nothing. A subtle difference, I think.
?Fi (who is getting back to her footie charts for a little light relief)?

Oops, maybe I shouldn?t have mentioned anything about pies.
It's ok, I can burn more than one pie at a time :D

Cheers,
Fi

41
Hi Fi,
Ah, but he said he didn't believe in anything,"
... and if one doesn't believe in 'any' thing, one believes in 'no' thing ... the subtle difference being?
It's ok, I can burn more than one pie at a time
:lala ... yes, have occasionally managed that myself - might want to leave a window open!

Cheers,
TS

42
... and if one doesn't believe in 'any' thing, one believes in 'no' thing ... the subtle difference being?
Too subtle for me, TS :? I think my comment sounded more clever than it actually was, Andrew :wink:

Fi