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Ingress charts for 2020 - indications of conflict?
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Phantastikon



Joined: 09 May 2015
Posts: 21
Location: London

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:49 pm    Post subject: Ingress charts for 2020 - indications of conflict? Reply with quote

Hi Everyone,

Ok so first post; yes I've been lurking around for a few years now and learnt a lot from this forum - it's an amazing repository of knowledge. I wonder how many other people out there perhaps just read it! Not very original but nonetheless.

I have some questions about these charts. and would welcome any other opinion or observations from those more used to working in mundane techniques; I've very recently bought Ben Dykes' Astrology Of The World II. I wasn't expecting to buy it, but when enquiring about it at a London astrology shop - they had one behind the counter with coffee spilt on it so I grabbed a bargain. I haven't got very far into it yet, so I hope I've got these techniques right.

The first thing that interested me about 2020 is the Mars/Saturn conjunction in Capricorn at the end of March. I know that these in Cancer can indicate conflict because they are in fall/detriment. But what if they are in Capricorn where they are both dignified?

The only suggestion I can find at the moment is from Bonatti :

"And Abu Mashar said there will be war if Mars were to commit his own disposition to Saturn, and Saturn were joined with him, and were to receive him" Bonatti/Dykes on Mundane Astrology.

And so I have drawn up an ingress chart for Aries, which will hopefully show up here if I have worked out how to post images correctly.





Now if I have this right, this would be the ingress chart for the Mars/Saturn conjunction. As it has a Moveable ascendant I would then use the Cancer ingress chart for the later Jupiter/Saturn conjunction. I am experimenting with Dykes' Mean Conjunctions, (thanks for the article BTW) so this would be Sept 14 2020. I'm still getting my head around these mean conjunctions they are very knew to me.

What interests me about the Aries ingress is its relationship to Russia's Saturn at 24 deg Capricorn (Russia Federation Chart 12 Jun 1990 Campion World Horoscopes). And of course Pluto will be there. This chart is calculated for London, but I did look at it for Moscow, perhaps I will post that later as it's getting late now. So this I suppose is suggesting events also including the UK.

The other two things that are interesting are; Mercury ruler of the 6th house of armies in detriment and fall in Pisces. I really don't want to add to any more doom and gloom predictions but it does make me think of nuclear type scenarios. Al Biruni lists Mercury as ruling depilatory substances - things that make your hair fall out - and yellow and green stones. Pisces on the 3rd house makes me think of submarines (The Fishes) on journeys. Mercury also ruling communication technology, hacking, cyber warfare but perhaps also missiles. I hope I could be wrong on all that.

The Moon is also interesting. It applies to square a dignified Venus. This perhaps can be taken as the People missing comforts or luxuries. I don't really want to be too negative again, but maybe rationing or sanctioning?

Jupiter is with Mars but is in Fall so not able to help much.

The Cancer ingress for the Mean Conjunction later is perhaps similar, what I noticed about this is Mars sextile Jupiter again in Fall, but squaring the Moon in the 6th. The Sun is setting and Mercury is the only planet above the horizon ruling the 6th.





Perhaps I will add more later, its getting late and I'm really tired! Sorry I couldn't post on a more positive note, I hope others can find something more positive in it. I see there are other threads emerging on this, obviously because of Pluto's involvement. Astrology aside, despite Putin's reassuring comments today, there is growing tension between NATO and Russia. Could it all really come to war I'm really not so sure now.

Regards
Phil.


Last edited by Phantastikon on Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:26 pm; edited 7 times in total
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Phantastikon



Joined: 09 May 2015
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some other thoughts about these charts are,

1) The destruction of the houses of assets' from Al-Rijal The Book Of The Skilled VIII - On The Indications of War. The Saturn/Jupiter conjunction occurs in Aquarius the second house, and saturn heads to ingress it in both nocturnal charts

2) The Ruler of the 7th house of friends/enemies is square venus in Aries chart and square Mars in Cancer chart. I seem to remember the importance of the 7th house was noted in ingress charts for WW2 but I can't remember where I read that.

3)If Mars is in the Stakes in a revolution it stirs up war in accordance with his strength, according again to Al-Rijal. In the Aries ingress chart it is on the ASC in exaltation, in the Cancer ingress chart it is squaring the Moon on the IC.*

*Edit: Sorry I was not reading this correctly , the Moon is not on the IC and I should really wear glasses more often.


Would you use Mars or Saturn as lord of ASC?


Last edited by Phantastikon on Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Phantastikon

thanks for posting on a topic i am interested in and making some knowledgeable astrological comments. i posted the same chart as yours on another thread here and have been at a loss as to how to address what i think is coming down the pipe in terms of a subject title here on the mundane forum..

basically it a question of whether a war is shaping up and what are the astro signatures if one is? noting planetary positions in national charts and trying to figure this out is a real crap shot. the ingress charts have more potential suggesting a possible time frame, as opposed to what is often a multitude of charts for a country..

i think i put the first chart you posted up on the saturn/pluto thread i was working on a while ago.. i haven't finished with that thread as i feel saturn/pluto has something to do with war.. although i haven't focused on country charts so much, i made a few posts on a thread on saudi arabia that is related to this..

i suppose the big 3 countries - usa, russia and china are involved in any possible world war - all as i see it based on the economic interests that seem to been diverging for a number of reasons. obviously europe and other countries in asia are important to this as well, not to mention the middle east where a number of wars have happened due the economic driver - oil - being a central driver of this region economically.

here is a chart with the solar eclipse for dec 26 2019 on the inside and aries ingress 2020 set to london. one can note a few things immediately here too which also involve mars. thanks again for posting and welcome to skyscript!


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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I seem to remember the importance of the 7th house was noted in ingress charts for WW2 but I can't remember where I read that.


You might have seen that here. If not, I'll recap. The Aries ingress for 1939, cast for Paris, France, Had Mars in Capricorn in 6 (Regiomontanus cusps) and Saturn in Aries in 10. Both Saturn and Mars are linked to the 7th house of war in this chart. Mars is exalted there and Saturn is the domicile ruler.

But that's not enough. What most old astrologers did with these charts was find the ruler of the year and that planet received the most attention. The problem is that not all astrologers agreed how to determine that planet.

On a thread here we discussed Morin's method as taken from Book 25 of Astrologia Gallica as interpreted by Jean Hieroz a famous French astrologer in an article he wrote in 1946. Morin's method virtually guarantees that Mars or the Sun, possibly with another planet, will be Lord of the year. In this case Mars and Saturn shared the duty and as Morin says, if both malefics are rulers of the year, war is likely. In September 1939 it became a reality.

In the 2020 chart, using the same method, I'm not so sure. Both Mars and Saturn are in the same sign, but Morin's key is to use the ruler of the point in question, in this case 0 Aries. Mars and Saturn can be said to be linked, but not to the 7th house in any way.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phantastikon wrote:
Some other thoughts about these charts are,

1) The destruction of the houses of assets' from Al-Rijal The Book Of The Skilled VIII - On The Indications of War. The Saturn/Jupiter conjunction occurs in Aquarius the second house, and saturn heads to ingress it in both nocturnal charts

2) The Ruler of the 7th house of friends/enemies is square venus in Aries chart and square Mars in Cancer chart. I seem to remember the importance of the 7th house was noted in ingress charts for WW2 but I can't remember where I read that.

3)If Mars is in the Stakes in a revolution it stirs up war in accordance with his strength, according again to Al-Rijal. In the Aries ingress chart it is on the ASC in exaltation, in the Cancer ingress chart it is squaring the Moon on the IC.

Would you use Mars or Saturn as lord of ASC?


It is the Russian chart that looks most exciting:



Look at the stellium of planets in capricorn in 10th(includes Pluto and South node)

PD
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Phantastikon



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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James_M - yes I did see your thread, and I was hoping you would add more to it. I started another thread because I saw that you wanted perhaps to use it as a place for your own thoughts.

Thanks for adding the eclipse chart, I had not looked into that but realise their importance.

Tom thank you for explaining Morin's technique clearly. I am not very familiar with his work.

Pankajdubey thanks for posting the Russia ingress chart and taking the time to post it in a similar format.

I would like to add some more thoughts at some point soon when I have read more of Astrology of the World: II. For now I've corrected an observation I made about the Moon on the Cancer chart IC above. All the best.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Phantastikon.

bonati also seems to suggest that mars and saturn have to be in square or opposition aspect with one another to represent a war signature - from some of my recall on this.. also the mars warlike possibility may be offset by being in trine to venus in taurus..

pankajdubey,

thanks.. i was looking at all 3 of the countries - china, russia and usa for 2020 aries ingress.. since you've posted the 1, here are the other 2.


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Phantastikon



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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again James,

BTW I was thinking about where else I heard about importance of the 7th house in WW2 , one place was in a blog by Lee Lehman.

http://leephd.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/the-development-of-modern-mundane.html

I'm certainly not implying that I have already arrived at any pre-conceived conclusion that we are heading towards a war but there is some great content there on the conjunctions.

The blog post also carries some great research about how astrologers at the time of WW2 made a lot of errors in technique and judgement.


- Other small thing I wanted to correct is Mercury in Cancer ingress chart, I'm not used to reading the Flat Angle charts they just seemed easier to upload at the time and they don't seem to show the IC or DC. It has already set in the chart, maybe there is something in it just leaving a phasis or going under beams and I haven't look at its speed so I'm not sure.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks phantastikon,

i read that article by lehman some time ago.. i like her writing..

i don't know much about what i am doing- mostly going on collected ideas from over the years.. saturn/pluto is about hardship.. kinda like all the saturn stuff amplified.. i was mostly focused on that which got me to looking at the saturn-jupiter conjunction which is what astrologers from before the discovery of the outers were looking at in terms of mundane astrology. i believe i posted a jupiter-saturn conjunction in one of these threads too which falls in the same general time frame..

in ben dykes volume 2 a discussion develops around the idea that certain aries ingress charts would be more relevant in connection with the ju-saturn conjunction chart.. so i got to looking at all of this as it is all in the same general time frame - saturn/pluto conjunction, jupiter/saturn conjunction and interesting astro patterns in the 2020 ingress charts that might put greater emphasis on 2020 then some of the other years in close proximity.. i can't remember how many of the others i have looked at, perhaps because the one for 2020 jumped out a bit more immediately..

regarding the flat angle charts.. i like the look of them.. i prefer to use the degree of the ascendant on the angle - equal house option) with the midheaven as a point - which is what the flat angle chart has.. the ic or angle of the earth - is opposite the midheaven degree.. it is there, but one has to imagine it a bit more.. as for planets in signs - the signs are obvious to read, which is why i like seeing the degree of the ascendant, or equal house option for looking at charts.. a quick example is the 2020 aries ingress for the usa.. one can see venus is in taurus which is the 7th sign on the descendant at 24 taurus.. whether one wants to view it as a 6th or 7th house, it is a 7th house whole sign planet in that chart and easier for me to read!!

i am super busy right now with 12 hour days, but will have more time next week - monday/tuesday and maybe i can see some other ingress charts that stand out in relation to all the astro traffic outlined above..

one of my more recent interests has been the nodal axis.. while i have always thought eclipse data plays an important part of events - i have come to think this is a key ingredient to getting a better grip on reading a chart!! looking at eclipse charts is an art in itself. there are often more then a few to look at and one needs to know what they are looking for.. i am mostly looking for a strong or weak spot that would be more likely to push events a certain way, while keeping in mind all of this data.. i will be looking at these charts more as well.

as an interesting side note - the 2018 aries ingress charts have a mars/saturn conjunction in them as well - also in capricorn.. that is a bit further away from the jupiter/saturn or saturn/pluto conjunctions, but still similar - approx 2 year cycle of mars that lines up with saturn in the sign cap..

the chart below has the sun/mars square that lehman seems to think was an important element to the outbreak of the 2nd ww.. however, saturn is in much better shape..


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Phantastikon



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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really not too confident in mundane either, but it is fascinating. I think you are right to look into other ingresses in surrounding years. The 2018 chart may show authority taking actions that are opposed to law or common sense because Moon ruler of MC applies to oppose Jupiter from the 8th.
The thing about the 2020 ingress is that Mars and Saturn seem essentially happy where they are and not angered. But Pluto/Saturn is something else as you said. As you pointed out the trine to Venus is very mitigating. They might only apply to circumstances during or after conflict if there should even be one.

I think Mars and Saturn together in an angle might indicate conflict if it is in Human Signs, here not so sure what. Resources perhaps but Aquarius is also playing an important role during this period in a variety of ways. Pluto is yet to ingress there.

The planets not so happy in UK chart seem to be Mercury ruling the house of armies, and its dispositor Jupiter in Fall. Jupiter here could just be part of a much longer/wider shift East economically because it is in Asc symbolising the East, in Capricorn/financial resources. And the moon perhaps ruling the 7th in the 2nd. This may just mean shifting economic alliances but Fixed views rather than anything military and it squares venus in 5th so fluctuations related to speculation perhaps. What this might mean in other charts you have posted I haven't had time to think about yet.

I've got some other ideas coming soon but still reading. Other passing thought is planets in ASC indicating people coming from the East. I have this Sag trait of acting and then thinking later so I will try and get it ordered beforehand.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks phantastikon,

take yer time...

4 degree cancer is the degree of the nodal axis in the sa/pl conjunction chart and was the degree of saturn/pluto conjunction in the 1914 area as i recall.. going on memory here, so i might have to be corrected.. i know 4 cancer shows up in some of the future and past related charts i've been looking at..

update to that last paragraph - the saturn/pluto conjunction for 1914 was 2 cancer and change.. 2020 aries ingress the north node is at 4 cancer 02..corrections - 7 cancer is the degree of the north node in the 2020 sa/pl conjunction. 6 cancer is the degree of the north node in the 1982 sa/pl conjunction.. mars rules the first 6, 7 or 8 degrees of cancer of the using the 3 different terms or bounds system fwiw...


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Mjacob



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Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looking at Aries ingress for London 2020 and at first glance it reminded me of the 1938 chart for Prague prior to the invasion of March 14th 1939. if we allow Mars dignity as participating triplicity ruler he is more dignified than Saturn so could be ruler of the year. Saturn is about to Change signs albeit to his next domicile.

They are in each other's terms but if dignified in the first surely they could be good for the people? Maybe Britain starts the war

Will think again about the Moon but she looks like she is parting from the Sun - significator of rulers to Venus significatrix of Islam in her domicile

Matthew
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Phantastikon



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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Matthew, thanks for your thoughts.

Iím still not sure what to think about the exalted Mars in Asc 2020 ingress.

Maybe Mars has the upper hand with the conjunction with Jupiter in Fall in 2020 chart, perhaps good for the people in an odd way if there was some sort of conflict - could be a Dunkirk/Blitz spirit, in a resolute Vera Lynn way because of Capricorn.

Less positive interpretation of exalted Mars; as James_M pointed out the exalted Mars square Sun earlier in 2018 chart is not looking so great if you go with what Leeman says:

ďEither way you cut it, an Aries Ingress with Mars exalted in a partile square to the Sun looks like a war.Ē Her comment on the 1939 ingress chart, Mars will be at the same point in 2018 as it was in 1939 ingress chart. Mars is happy but setting up trouble for later perhaps or there is confidence in the people.

Still not sure what to make of Jupiter/Mercury in Fall/Detriment, they rule the 6th/12th house axis, and Moon/Venus are in the terms of Jupiter.

Elsewhere, Chinaís Communist chart has Jupiter at 22 deg Capricorn, so this will be a Jupiter return for China. With Pluto there as well as the other planets, maybe this could be a further indication of strengthening of China/Russia/BRICS relations, perhaps in military strategic terms because of Mars/Pluto. Jupiterís optimism for popularity and gaining support/ruler of 11th in Chinaís chart and very long term international/internal development plans (Capricorn) may have no support from the West. Maybe the well known USA Pluto 2020 line up hints at that and a response.

Looking very roughly at the Valensí Minor Periods of the planets , Russiaís Saturn from 1990 chart will be active after 30 years = 2021. Chinaís 1949 Jupiter will be active every 12 years = 2021.

Other thoughts Iíve had, Iíve been playing with this lot to see if it has any relevance:

The Lot Of Fighting:
Mars to Moon, projected from Sun.

Dykes said this may perhaps be a mistake by the author, because we already have a similar lot projected from the Asc, so I wanted to test it. No mention if there is any reverse for nocturnal/diurnal charts. Maybe there is a mathematical reason for some of the links to this Lot Iíve spotted but itís giving me a headache thinking about it.

Rough and ready look at UK Charts:

1802 - UK declares war on France, in ingress chart Saturn squares Fighting from 2 deg Sag to 2 deg Virgo. Also last triplicity shift of Saturn/Jupiter conjunction.

1899 - Boer war, fixed Asc on aries ingress so chart is valid for whole year incl. Oct start of war. Saturn squares Fighting from 26 deg Sag to Fighting at 26-27 deg Pisces.

1914 - WW1 ingress chart, Fighting opposes Venus ruler of Fighting which is in detriment in Aries. Although there are lot of other indications for trouble in that chart esp. Mars in Cancer with Moon.

1939 - WW2 Moon ruler of Fighting squares Fighting from 5 deg Aries to 5 deg Cancer.

2018 - In ingress chart, Moon squares Fighting from 6-7 deg Taurus to 6-7 deg Leo. Mars squares the ruler of Fighting - the Sun.

2020 - In ingress chart Mars ruler of Fighting squares Fighting from 22 deg Capricorn to 22 deg Aries, in bounds of Mars

Edit: Actually just realised something quite fundamentally wrong, I've got the chart for Russia wrong from the very start. I was looking at the wrong page in Campion so Russia's Saturn is at 4-5 Aquarius. So you can ignore everything about Russia Confused
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Phantastikon



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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst fixing fundamental error I made with Russia chart to begin with thought I would mention something else if it hasn't been mentioned elsewhere which it probably has somewhere.

Pluto crosses the ecliptic from its orbital inclination of 16-17 degrees in 2018-2020, so it crosses its own South Node. The last time this happened was in 1930 when it crossed ecliptic again at North Node. This was when Pluto was discovered as it was I assume more visible, and you had The Great Depression.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phantastikon wrote:

Pluto crosses the ecliptic from its orbital inclination of 16-17 degrees in 2018-2020, so it crosses its own South Node. The last time this happened was in 1930 when it crossed ecliptic again at North Node. This was when Pluto was discovered as it was I assume more visible, and you had The Great Depression.


thanks for a very interesting observation phantastikon.. i used to look at this infrequently, but i appreciate you bringing it to our attention!

i have in a book the north node of pluto at 20 cancer 33-34 over the years 2018-2020.. so indeed it is crossing over the south node at this time.

also - saturn north node at 23 cancer 49 is in the same general area here too..
jupiter north node is at 10 cancer 41 area as well..

one passing thought i had for the 2020 ingress for britian is the idea that someone else would be taking over the throne and queen victoria will no longer be the head of state... going on memory - i seem to recall the queens saturn on the midheaven in scorpio.. i wonder when she steps down and one of the young lads takes her place??

ot regarding the issue of conflict - great article some might enjoy reading here.. http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176007/tomgram%3A_alfred_mccoy%2C_washington%27s_great_game_and_why_it%27s_failing_/#more
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