a few other observations.. regarding saturn overcoming venus - sure, but then jupiter overcomes saturn and of course saturn is in jupiters sign sag - as is mars... i am not convinced of saturn as being lord of the year for a few reasons - malefic of the opposite sect, but also it is stationary about to go retrograde as well... regarding bounds - going on memory - mars is also in the bounds of jupiter.. as i said before i think the square with mars and venus lessens mars ability to do harm along with these other factors.. saturn would appear to be the more challenging energy.. ruling the ascendant it doesn't bode well for the people of the country..

I agree about Saturn and the people. I guess Saturn will have its coldness emphasised, in Sag quite depressing ethical or moral issues for the people to deal with. I saw Mars as angular and ruling 10th whole sign, as the government taking action or intervening in some way. Cooled by night/calculated and not hasty. Being quite proactive in its proposals but with a private agenda/Scorpio, in bounds of Jupiter and ruled by Jupiter perhaps seen as backing the banks, or privatisation/8th house.

Other thought I had, tussle with the media but agreement and settlement of the License Fee because of reception between Mercury/media and ruling 5th house/creative industries and Jupiter/lawmakers.

i am not convinced of saturn as being lord of the year for a few reasons - malefic of the opposite sect, but also it is stationary about to go retrograde as well

Well, I have to disagree These are most certainly not the reasons to discard Saturn as the most obvious candidate for LOY, if one sticks to the guidelines provided by the ancients i.e. source texts dealing with the issue.


Regards,
Goran

thanks goran.. i respect your viewpoint, but always appreciate any quotes from the ancients you have to provide too!

i thought about it some more the past week and think mars as ruler of the aries sun is an additional reason for my rationale for mars ruling the chart.. i don't mind being wrong..i also know that the ancients didn't agree on everything either..

i don't see this mars as problematic as you seem to imply.. i suppose we will have to wait and see.. i am keeping an open mind and never afraid to learn more here..

thanks goran.. i respect your viewpoint, but always appreciate any quotes from the ancients

?k, here it goes

In Flores Albumasaris when Abu Ma'shar was delineating the planets as Lord of the Year he says
If Saturn is found to be lord of the year....and if Saturn is found to be in a bad condition...

Then there's an example of a chart given by Masha'allah in the book The Astrological History of Masha'allah by Kennedy and Pingree. Abu Ma'shar refers to this chart and it is in his book also. It is the chart of the Revolution of the Year for the conjunction indicating "the Religion". It is chart 6 in this book, indicating the shift of the Triplicity and the rise of Islam. This chart was accepted by ALL of these astrologers and they all refer to it. It is a chart that I find quite relevant to the issue at hand. For those who do not have access to this chart it is as follows:

The Ascendant: 22? Libra
Saturn: 6? Scorpio 13' Rx (in the first house)
Jupiter: 4? Scorpio 26 Rx (in the first house)
Mars: 12?Gemini15' (9th house)
The Sun: 00? Aries 01' (in the 6th)
Venus: 02? Aries 16' (in the 6th)
Mercury: 18? Aries 26' (in the 7th)
The Moon: 01? Cancer 10' (in the 9th)
The chart is nocturnal. This is what Masha'allah had to say:

Masha'allah said that when he looked at this picture and the position of its planets, he found the strongest of them and the strongest in witness [i.e. the LOY and predominant planet] to be Saturn, because it entered the ascendant and it is the lord of its exaltation; and the Moon is the lord of the light [chart luminary] of the night, conferring its counsel upon it [Saturn] from the tenth by counting [i.e. by whole sign] and this is the ninth by division, the place of prophecy, and Jupiter confers counsel upon it [the Moon]

In the Aries ingress chart we're dealing with, the chart luminary testifies to Saturn as well from the angle of the 7th. But there's more.
Haly Abenragel also says that if many planets are...in many angles of the figure...see which of them is the lord of the day or the hour...and give him precedence over the others and accept him as the lord. And if that planet in the angle is aspected by the lord of its term or the Sun (in the day) the Moon (in the night)...he will have great precedence and have the most right to be Lord of the Year.

Venus as lady of Saturn's term is applying to him by square and Saturn happens to be the ruler of the day.

Regards,
Goran

Thanks Goran - this is a helpful example - I must admit that I do not normally take the Lord of day or hour into account. I did come across something to this effect - If a luminary is an an angle then one need look to no other - I think from Masha'allah and I hesitated to take Saturn's dignity by triplicity as a reason to overide that

Matthew

?he Moon in the angle of the 7th is certainly an important factor in and of itself, just like Mars on the MC.
One may even argue the Moon is besieged - separating from Saturn and applying to Mars by square without reception after entering Virgo.

In accordance with its position further in the 10th, Saturn's significations should manifest first , followed by Mars at the end of the first quarter of the year (they're oriental both from the ascendant as swell as from the Sun), whereas the Moon ought to "reveal" itself during the second quarter.

Reagrds,
Goran

cor scorpii wrote: One may even argue the Moon is besieged - separating from Saturn and applying to Mars by square without reception after entering Virgo.

Goran

Yes I certainly thought that besiegement would describe the Moons's position and Masha'allah would describe it in that way or maybe one could say Mars has a square aspect to the sign adjacent to the Moon

In your second para I take that you are looking at the primary directions for the year - I was hoping to catch up with Ben Dykes audio lecture on this subject bur Intro to Mundane II has disappeared from my PC for now

In your second para I take that you are looking at the primary directions for the year

No, I was actually referring to the sequence of the mundane quadrants which can be taken to designate the progression/development of events throughout the year. Starting at the ascendant and going clockwise, the four quadrants roughly signify for the four seasons of the year.

Regards,
Goran

goran,

skyscript was down for a few days but is back up now!

thanks for getting back to me and providing an example from Flores Albumasaris, otherwise known as Flowers of Abu Ma'shar.. this book is contained within ben dykes volume 2 book of the world.. here is a quote as well from the book which has some relevance, assuming saturn is lord of the year... "And if the aspect of Saturn to Jupiter were from a square aspect, instead of wars there will be disagreement in matters between those who are in the districts of Saturn and Jupiter." page 306 "Astrology of the World 11".. all quotes below from this translation of b dykes.

of course there are other quotes too on the relationship between saturn, if lord of the year with mars and sun and etc..

page 332 of this translation gives some commentary on saturn and mars in conjunction in the 11th.. "In the eleventh, destruction falling between friends, and everyone having a friend will be changed concerning his own associate."

page 344"If Saturn were in Sagittarius and his latitude northern, it indicates the heat of the atmosphere and a scarcity of winds and rain.... If retrograde, the severity of men's affairs, and a battle among them." fwiw page 346 jupiter in virgo offsets the lack of rain...

page 326 chapter 111: On war and civil unrest"
"The knowledge of battles and ar in from the place of Mars, in his assemblies with Saturn, from his opposition, or a square: for if it were thus, it signifies war. And if it was Jupiter instead of Mars, this will signify war provoked for justice, and those who say they were moved to war based on that.

page 305 "and if he(Saturn) was of a bad condition, it signifies the death of the wealthy, and envy and hatred of them, accusations and lack of concern, with the rustics hatred towards them."

i don't have a copy of "The Astrological History of Masha'allah" by Kennedy and Pingree. one reason this example is an important one is the importance given to jupiter/saturn conjunctions.. a planet in the ascendant is always considered more powerful then one in the 10th - which i take it the moon is in this chart, however i don't know the midheaven degree. this is why the chart is referred to as "the chart of the Revolution of the Year for the conjunction indicating "the Religion"." it's a good example. thanks!

i am rifling thru ben dykes book 'works of sahl and masha'allah.. some interesting comments are made my masha'allah in 'revolutions of the years of the world.' page 330 "Chapter 7: On the luminaries, if they were in the angles. Know that the luminaries, if there were in one of the angles, will be the lord of the Year - unless the one which was in an angle was impeded."

too many quotes to put in a post here, but interesting reading that sometimes seems to contradict itself.. perhaps this is due my unfamiliarity with the logic or the hierarchy of the logic..

perhaps as abraham ibn ezra suggests, the eclipse prior to the aries ingress is an important consideration as well.. you and others might like to offer some thoughts on the chart below.. i will try to gather my thoughts on all this and comment at some point..


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