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Chart Puzzle
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Copying this over so the links and chart remain visible n this new page)

Tom - have just uploaded the PDF file that has Smit's report of Leo Knegt's chart readings:

Leo Knegt - a White Crow beyond our Wildest Dreams?
by Rudolf H. Smit
http://skyscript.co.uk/LeoKnegtfinal8.pdf

Here is another copy of the chart in Regiomontanus - the link below will open a much larger image so that its details can be read more clearly.
http://skyscript.co.uk/im/k3.jpg



I don't think it is possible to be confident about his logic without seeing the chart in the house system he used. I don't understand 'the Ram system' at all, so what follows refers to the Regiomontanus example and can only offer a suggestion for the type of logic that could be used on a chart like this. I am bearing in mind that Knegt was an expert in horary, so it would have been natural for him to use the traditional approach towards significators on house cusps, even in natal charts, as I do.

This is subject three in the paper, who the tester described as being "A fantastic fraud, Swindler, charlatan". Knegt's assessment is said to focus almost solely on the element of being a fraudster, and some details sre given on p.14 of the PDF file:
Quote:

• ...One tends to rely on this person’s honest face and too quickly believing his treacherous propositions, thus there is every possibility of tremendous fraud, hence out right swindle!..."

• However, perhaps death makes an un expected end to all in justice. It is in deed certain that his life will terminate under very obscure or scary circumstances. Death will release him from misery but will bring suffering to others..." [The man committed suicide, which brought in describable financial suffering to others].

[He notices that if the birthtime of this subject had been a few minutes earlier, certain very negative character traits would have had lesser chance to develop or probably would have remained dormant forever. According to Knegt, with the birth time given, or just a few minutes later, these negative traits, which all point to serious dishonesty, would have developed].


There is a mutual reception by sign between the Moon in the 2nd house and Saturn on the cusp of the 8th house, the Moon (8th-ruler) lacking any kind of dignity and Saturn (2nd-ruler) being in its sign of detriment - so straightaway, financial problems and corruptions in affairs involving other people's money are highlighted.

The emphasis on Saturn is increased by its square to the Libran MC, which has Mars prominently placed upon it. Mars is also in detriment and acts as the ruler of the 12th house, so the expression of his professional activities are dominated by deceit and trouble.

Libra is the sign of the charmer, but when a debilitated Mars is afflicted within this sign and acting as a main significator in the chart, it shows someone who is superficially charming but lacking integrity. The man has an honest-looking face - Moon in trine to asc-ruler Jupiter in Libra (but Jupiter is afflicted by conj with Uranus, so he is not reliable). Jupiter's dispositor is Venus, which also squares the Libran MC and Mars upon it, emphasising the ability to charm and be persuasive, but Venus is also conjunct the 8th house cusp, again showing his intentions are tied to matters concerning other people's money. The assessment of the 8th-house concerns as being "treacherous", and the probability of deceit and lies are also seen in the placement of Mercury in the 8th, peregrine, combust the Sun, retrograde and on the square of Neptune.

The chart is striking because of the placement of Mars within 5° of the MC - which would be lost if the chart had been cast a few minutes earlier, regardless of which house system was being used. It would also affect the placement of planets on house cusps, which is something that someone with a lot of experience in horary cannot fail to take notice of.

The same negative 8th-house associations are testimonies to the unfortunate death. I wish we had information on how he killed himself, but Moon as the 8th-ruler, applying to the opposition of the Sun in the 8th, and an afflicted Mercury in the 8th with the angles afflicted by a malefic are all signatures of self-induced or violent death.
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading on in the paper, it seems that Knegt put his emphasis on Mars on the MC in square to Venus, and in his house system Venus and Saturn were not considered to be 8th-house planets, since he describes them as being placed in the 7th house on p.6 of Smit's paper. Here he says:
Quote:

That there will be a generous chance of swindle is indicated by both Sun and Mercury, Ruler of 7, in Leo, and, at a later birth time, also in connection to the Horizon!!


This seems a very weak explanation of something that, in the Regiomontanus chart, has a great deal of supportive testimonies. Surely he was considering something more than the fact that 7th-ruler Mercury and the Sun were both in Leo! He many not have stated it, but I cannot believe that his interpretation did not also consider the combustion, peregrine status and retrograde motion of Mercury, nor its square to Neptune and unfortunate fixed-star connections.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the way my solar fire is set, i need to enter the actual time and the actual place, as opposed to entering long and lat coordinates... like thus below..


James, we'd all like to have everything we want, but it's not always true that we can have it. The reason you didn't get the "actual place" is that I don't have it to give. The test was "blind" with one exception. The astrologer did not know the names or the actual birth locations and coordinates were given instead so he could calculate the charts. That's what was in the paper. Since all the data necessary to calculate a chart was given, it is your software that is the problem. The coordinates are obviously very close to the Greenwich meridian that GMT is appropriate as well.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This seems a very weak explanation of something that, in the Regiomontanus chart, has a great deal of supportive testimonies.


The following is a sentence from Table 2 pertaining to this chart

Quote:
That there will be a generous chance of swindle is indicated by both Sun and Mercury, ruler of 7 in Leo, and, at a later birth time, also in connection with the horizon!


Excuse me, but this is balderdash. We are told elsewhere that a few minutes makes the difference. The Sun and Mercury are 5 degrees apart even though they are mutually applying. It's 3:24 PM. The Sun won't set (i.e. be on the horizon) for hours not "a few minutes" and Mercury won't set for some 20 minutes after that. Sun-Mercury square Neptune is relevant but as a general characteristic. I think we're looking for something that "triggers" this so to speak or something that brings it out and that something is only in force for a short time. I did find something and I'll post it after I eat breakfast, which is when I will begin to write it up.
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Excuse me, but this is balderdash.


Yep, I agree, very strange remark. I can't understand why Knegt made that particular remark to substantiate his interpretation, though I can understand why he would make such an interpretation from this chart. My belief is that the reference to the "few minutes" would only concern the placement of Mars and its need to be upon the midheaven rather than just in the 10th house.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote this before breakfast after all:

What follows is, of course, speculative. Knegt died in 1957, so he is long past asking what he did and did not do. I looked over two other charts from this test before I looked at this one and that isn't enough to definitively state how he did things – far from it. After posting this I did notice something in the paper that I missed previously, he used parallels of declination, but that doesn't help here.

My “method” was to ask what could have happened in the cosmos that would only last a few minutes and if I found that, could it be applied to this chart? Whether or not this follows Knegt’s thinking I cannot say.

As Deb an others have noticed this chart does have the necessary signatures for a swindler. He also committed suicide in 1935. Those signatures were in effect for weeks or a month or more for some cases and other things maybe only a couple of days. We’re looking for minutes. The only thing I could think of that is a) significant and b) occurs and dissipates in minutes is an angle moving over a fixed star. If we use a 2 degree orb, both ways, and use the rule of thumb one-degree every four minutes, an angle would be within orb of a star for 8 minutes before perfection and 8 minutes after. That’s a few minutes.

Does this apply in this chart? Yes. The ASC is almost exactly on Sabik a particularly nasty 2nd magnitude star. Robson, in 1920 writes this: “It causes wastefulness, lost energy, perverted morals, and success in evil deeds.”

The chart has, in addition to the Mercury-Sun square Neptune, a really awful Saturn in Cancer (detriment) Mars in Libra (detriment) square that is also angular, but barely as, using Regiomontanus cusps puts Saturn within about 2 degrees of the 8th cusp. As time goes on Saturn moves deeper into the 7th, but Mars moves to the 9th. It is no longer angular after about 20 minutes or so. So this, too, might meet the “a few minutes” criteria.

Venus is also on Pollux, but that lasts all day. Robson says of that star: “subtle, crafty, spirited brave, audacious, cruel and rash nature … dignified malevolence. “

The way I’m looking at this is that all the necessary significations were in place on the day of birth, but the influence was not so great in and of themselves as the orbs are pretty wide and there wasn't an abundance of con men born within a couple of weeks of these aspects. However Venus hit Pollux on the same day he was born and the ASC hit Sabik at the moment he was born just prior to Mars leaving the 10th house sealing the deal. A few minutes later, and he might not have been all that bad. At 3:24:30 all the gears meshed for a few minutes.

I don’t know if Knegt used fixed stars or not. If he didn't and he stuck by his “few minutes,” the only other thing I can see is Mars moving out of the tenth into the 9th by diurnal motion. The combination seems to have done it.
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regard to the "few minutes" remark, it is only said that the interpretation would be invalid if the real birth time was a few minutes earlier (not later - see p.14). The interpretation is said to be correct if the birth occurred at the time reported or later than the time reported, so Knegt must be thinking of something that has just come into orb, but which, a few minutes earlier, would not be in effect. Or it could be that his house system placed the Sun/Mercury conjunction in the 7th, and one of the points he made rested on those planets being angular and not in the 8th (hence it still applied later, right up to the time those planets passed beyond the descendant).
It doesn't look to me that Smidt has reported all the details he could have reported, which is very frustrating and means that ultimately we can't do anything more than speculate. I like the idea of the using the other reported results as a way for astrologers to test themselves though. I don't have time right now, but would like to try that test myself sometime.

I don't think it is the case that Knegt was an especially outstanding astrologer, or that the techniques he used were the only ones that could produce good results, I think it was more a case of this test being one that suits astrological analysis particularly well, because of its selection of test-examples who were all very different, but all very striking in the notable details of their lives.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree we are working with sketchy material of sketchy material and that is frustrating.

At the bottom of page 14 in brackets.


Quote:
He notices that if the birth time of this subject had been a few minutes earlier the negative characteristics would have had a lesser time to develop or probably would have remained dormant forever. According to Knegt, with the birth time given or just a few minutes later, these negative traits, all of which point to dishonesty, would have developed.


So earlier by a few minutes less or no development of the negative traits. Birth time or later they would develop, but we don't know for how much later this cosmic condition would exist.

I think Knegt was hedging his bet. He noticed something that had just come into effect and therefore wanted the reader to know that he was delineating based on the given birth time, but if it was off and the birth was a few minutes earlier the delineation might not be accurate.

This throws out my idea of the Mars - Saturn conjunction no longer being angular, since later means it is no longer angular and therefore weaker. I don't see how it helps promote the idea of the Sun-Mercury square Neptune aspect unless he places a lot of importance to Neptune moving diurnally from house 6 to house 5 and being on the 6th house cusp at the birth time.

But Venus moves across the 8th cusp into the 7th prior to Mars crossing the MC diurnally. I can't see how this would create problems though. A few minutes earlier and Saturn would be in 8 and the square not angular. From the birth time for about 20 minutes the square is angular.

I still like the fixed star idea.

Wink
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom,

i was just responding to your puzzled comment..

i never asked you for anything in my first post here either - but i guess that escaped you as well..

cheers james

Tom wrote:
Quote:
the way my solar fire is set, i need to enter the actual time and the actual place, as opposed to entering long and lat coordinates... like thus below..


James, we'd all like to have everything we want, but it's not always true that we can have it. The reason you didn't get the "actual place" is that I don't have it to give. The test was "blind" with one exception. The astrologer did not know the names or the actual birth locations and coordinates were given instead so he could calculate the charts. That's what was in the paper. Since all the data necessary to calculate a chart was given, it is your software that is the problem. The coordinates are obviously very close to the Greenwich meridian that GMT is appropriate as well.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
for anyone who wants to replicate the chart in solar fire - i put in 345pm and the location - utrecht, netherlands..


I use solar fire. I didn't have to adjust anything. I just put in the coordinates. There is no way to "set it" so coordinates can't be used, much less have to guess the location and adjust the time. Are you running the MS DOS version? The dialogue box just pops up. You fill in the information. It's easy.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had he used the nodes, the logic would be much simpler.
SN by it's retro motion has just entered the 2nd house and has a long way to travel.I am not sure where the SN would be in the Ram system of houses.

The nodal axis runs across 2/8 houses.

In another forum, I read that Dutch astrologers have the ephemeris tables for his three Ram points

PD
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom

solar fire 7.3.1 running on a windows platform..
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
tom

solar fire 7.3.1 running on a windows platform..



your post is shrinking , James Very Happy
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Lazarus



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Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not at my computer and so only have access to astro.com. I also don't have the time to read through the actual article at the moment but will do so later. What I notice is that setting the time for 3:14pm and using Campanus cusps that the POF is now in late Taurus, that Mars is conjoined the 11th house cusp, with Jupiter much closer to the MC, that Saturn/Venus are in the 7th house, not the 8th. What is striking to me is that Mars is no longer in the 10th and so has basically no influence on the native's career/public persona. Instead Jupiter does and Jupiter, though peregrine, is the sect benefic and is in a masculine sign and is not afflicted (I'm not considering Uranus); he is also trine the Moon, who is the exalted dispositor of the POF in late Taurus. This is just a cursory analysis but I am thus far convinced, without doing much more, that this would significantly change things for the better. The same time using Regiomontanus cusps gives us Mars in the 10th but again Jupiter is much closer to the MC. Astro.com does not give me the correct chart using 3:24pm and I believe someone else mentioned the correct time was 3:45pm using Solar Fire? In any case there are clearly discrepancies in the language employed. "A few minutes" is a very relative statement and if it was employed nonchalantly then it could mean a half hour or even more, based on some of the other comments (Sun/Mercury in the 7th?). We cannot project our understanding of that term onto someone writing in the 1930s. People make these mistakes all of the time even today. The most common is when people exaggerate and say things like it was 10 hours when it was actually 2 etc. We should keep in mind that perhaps this paper wasn't meant to be published or that the person who wrote it never thought it would receive the attention it is receiving now. Just a conjecture.
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