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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Horary: Who will be the new Pope ?

 
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Kien



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Vietnam

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:15 am    Post subject: Horary: Who will be the new Pope ? Reply with quote

Hello from Vietnam,

I have always enjoyed reading the articles at Skyscript, thank you very much for your insightful information and discussion.

This is my first post. I have an horary to share with you. Hope that you could give comment on the approach and the judgement, so that I could learn.

I was reading an article with a heading like “Who will be the new Pope?” in a major Vietnamese online newspaper. The article was posted online at 12:28 pm, Sunday 3 April.

Feeling my mind is moved and curious, I took the article as if someone asking me an horary.

The chart of 12:28 pm, 3 April 2005, in Hanoi (Vietnam) 105E51, 21N24, time zone –7:00 gives 26Cancer07’ rising, and 21Aries06’ culminating.



The distinction of the chart is Dragon head North Node in Aries less than 2 degree from the MC, with Venus, Sun and Mercury also in Aries line up toward the 9th house side. This chart seems relevant to a papacy election.

I took the 9th house as the Pope, its ruler Jupiter conjunct the South Node and the IC. This signifies the deceased John Paul II.

The coming Pope then signified by 11th house (3rd of 9th house), ruled by Venus. Looking from a different perspective, Venus, Sun and Mercury all line up toward the MC, with Venus closest, just a minute ahead of the Sun.
Venus is further emphasized by ruling both Part of Fortune and Part of Spirit.

Apart from Venus, which planets are other candidates?

The MC, being the highest point in the sky, and conjunct the North Node, has a sub-influence. Sun and Mars have equal dignity there.
Sun overwhelms Venus (combustion).
Mars quintiles MC/NNode, is a candidate in his own right. However, Mars sextile Venus means he also supports Venus to be the new Pope.

So who is Venus?
Venus in Aries, the opposite of its own house. Its position in a foreign place suggests the new Pope will be non-Italian. Not only Aries is not Venus’ own sign, but also it is the opposite, of detriment. Hence it suggests the new Pope may come from a much different background, he can be non-European. Venus in Libra suggest white colour, Venus in Aries suggest darker colour, or even black, the opposite of white.

The Sabian symbol of 15th degree Aries where Venus locates read: “An Indian weaving a blanket”. ‘Indian’ suggests non-European, while ‘weaving’ suggests the ability to reconcile differences. I don’t know much about the candidates for the election, except some info from the mentioned article. It is said that the Cardinal from Nigeria has served the Church in something like liaison with the Islam world. I consider it might be relevant here.

Venus in the south sector of the chart, also indicates Africa (south from Italy)

Checking the Astrocartography line, it reveals that the Ascending lines of Venus and Sun pass exactly through Nigeria. Whereas Ascending line of Mars pass through Brazil.

The article I read only mentions six cardinals from Germany, Italy, Austria, Brazil, Honduras and Nigeria, I don’t know who are the other candidates. But as according to above astrological considerations, Africa comes out very strongly, I came into conclusion that the new Pope will be Francis Arinze, the Cardinal from Nigeria. Whereas cardinal Claudio Hummes from Brazil, who has a chance to win himself, will help support Francis Arinze to become the Pope.

The Moon is close to Mars, it may show the fact that Latin America has highest number (nearly half) of Church followers in the world.

To time the event, since Church’s rule is that the cardinals have to reach their decision no later than 20 days but no earlier than 15 days since the death of the previous Pope, it means the possible time is from 17 to 22 April.
I took 22nd April, the day the Moon in Libra, opposite Venus in our chart, as the day the Pope position will be finalized.

Please give your comments
Thank you
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Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kien

Welcome to the forum and thanks for giving us your judgement on this chart. I love the way you have explained your reasoning so clearly. Could you say a little more about why you took the new Pope’s signification from the 11th house (as the 3rd from the 9th house)?

Thanks
Deb
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Kien



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Vietnam

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Deb,

Thank you for posting the chart.

The idea of taking the 3rd house I first encountered in a book by Marion March and Joan McEver who said in case a person marry more than once, the 7th house signifies first spouse, the 9th house the second spouse and so on, jumping two houses at a time. Also Vedic astrology considers 3rd house as the house of ‘younger’ sibling.

In this chart, eventhough 9th house would traditionally signify the Pope, I think it is also a cadent house, falling from power in the 10th house, whereas the 11th house is approaching. Hence I decided that 9th house represents the old Pope, 11th the coming Pope and 10th the transitory period when there is no Pope.

Best regards,
Kien
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1393

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:32 pm    Post subject: Some questions Reply with quote

Quote:
Sun overwhelms Venus (combustion).

Considering that Venus is scaping combustion (I think), then the worst effects of combustion are passed, isn´t it ? I think it is other significator of the death of the current pope.

Quote:
Venus in Aries, the opposite of its own house. Its position in a foreign place suggests the new Pope will be non-Italian. Not only Aries is not Venus’ own sign, but also it is the opposite, of detriment. Hence it suggests the new Pope may come from a much different background, he can be non-European. Venus in Libra suggest white colour, Venus in Aries suggest darker colour, or even black, the opposite of white.


Well, Mars is the Regent of Aries. Mars is also the regent of the 5th house (which is the 9th by the 9th). Could that means that the new pope is from a foreign country ? (just taking a high guess)
Bye
Yuzuru
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Kien



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Vietnam

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yuzuru,

Thank you for your comment.

Your reasoning also confirms Mars is from a foreign country. In fact I identified him with cardinal Claudio Hummes from Brazil.

However I did not take 10th house as significator of the new Pope (I was tempted to do so at first, but later changed my mind to take 11th instead). So I choose Venus, not Mars, as the new Pope.

Cheers
Kien
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Kien



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Vietnam

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today Papal Conclave is going to start in a few hours.

I have misunderstood a bit about Church’s rule regarding the election schedule. Church’s rule is that the Papal Conclave should start between 17 and 22 April, rather than the new Pope position must be finalized within those dates.

However, that does not affect the prophesized date of 22 April as the date when we will know who the new Pope is.

Let’s see how accurate this horary turn out.

Thanks,
Kien
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1393

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:44 pm    Post subject: Sorry Reply with quote

Unfortunately the new pope seens to be german. And aparently it will be so rightwing as the last one or more.
Sorry your predicition didn`t work Confused
But I wouldn`t like an brasilian pope, we brasilian already have too many problems Leery
Yuzuru
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amelia



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 400
Location: Wales

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not strictly horary - but relevant to the thread

I was looking at the Vatican city chart ( in NC book of world horoscopes) last night and that was very revealing about when and who they would choose - (although I did get the hour wrong!)

Definitely a transitional pope. prog vatican sun changes signs in two years. Interestingly prog mars has recently gone into libra - so perhaps conciliatory although conservative
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Kien



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Vietnam

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My prediction didn't work. It happens all the time ! Laughing

Do you think if give this chart to an experienced astrologer, a correct prediction could be made? Or that the chart is not relevant enough ?

Thanks
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fensi88



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 69
Location: beograd

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you notice VOC Moon in this chart and how do you explain it?
Greetings,
Goca
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siraxi



Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 99
Location: Romania

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations Kien !!!

Your horary chart revealed the EXACT identity of the new Pope !!!

As you know, the 9th house cusp at 19Pis28 represents the Pope (that's logical, the 9th house is the religion). I am happy to announce you that the natal chart of Pope Benedict XVI, ex-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, has the Ascendant at 19Pis11.

One couldn't ask for more precision...

I am so amazed !

This is why I love horary ...

Pope's natal data: April 16, 1927, 4:15 am CET, Marktl, Germany (12e51, 48n15)

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siraxi



Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 99
Location: Romania

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this mean that if we read a newspaper article whose title is a QUESTION - it will work as a horary question - sent to the readers by the person who wrote the article?

Cool ... Thumbs up

So, that's why they post the exact time when the article was available online ... now I get it ! Razz
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fensi88



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 69
Location: beograd

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for natal data for new Pope!

Greetings,
Goca
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Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I applauded Kien’s effort to give us his judgement before the event, and I was hoping he would be correct (I have no preferences either way). But I think Kien and all of us will learn more from this if we make an honest evaluation. You seem to have put a very positive spin on this in hindsight Siraxi. Don’t you think that horary becomes pretty worthless if we have to wait until after the important event to discover details that make the horary descriptive?

To say that there is some connection to the issue because the 9th house cusp of the horary rises on the ascendant of the new Pope is one thing (although of all the connections that are possible, something apparently important was bound to connect between the two charts). To suggest that the horary therefore describes him exactly and we couldn’t ask for more precision is a stretch too far for me. And no, I dont' think this shows that we can use any newspaper headline to create a valid horary Smile

Sue made a relevant comment in the new UK election thread, and since there is an issue worth discussing here, that affects a number of recent posts, it seems like a good idea to create room for it in a new discussion where the principle of ‘mundane horaries’ (I actually think that is a contradiction in terms) can be discussed in a way that isn’t tied into any one chart.

Sorry your prediction didn’t work Kien. I’m going to raise your question
Quote:
“Do you think if give this chart to an experienced astrologer, a correct prediction could be made? Or that the chart is not relevant enough ?”

in the new post headed Mundane Horaries. I think this was probably less about your technique than the nature of the question around which the chart was framed and the basic premise of the personal ‘need to know’ being lacking. But I’ll write a little more on that in the new thread and hopefully you will get opinions from others too.
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