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Catastrophe's showed in Ingress chart - Ayanamsha question.
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Carl Matthews



Joined: 19 Jun 2015
Posts: 4
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Stefan quoted:

Quote:
"If one chart will convince us of the sidereal zodiac and that the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa is correct, then the Can-Solar Ingress for London on July 17 1939 is it!"
"Because the interplanetary aspects of any mundane charts are common to every place in the world, the all-important factor becomes the angles. Any planet which is 1-2 degrees of an angle is likely to play a marked role in the period ahead for an ingress chart. Equally, any body configuring the AS/MC midpoint by -0-, 45, 90, 135, or 180 within an orb of 2 degrees should be carefully noted. This often neglected point is of the greatest importance in all charts since it links together both angles and therefore gives a double intensity to the planetary bodies involved."

Stefan, where did you find this quote, and who are you quoting? Please give the book, author and page number.

Thanks,
Therese


Hi Therese,

I have the book that Stefan quoted from. Its ''Mundane Astrology'' by Baigent, Campion and Harvey, which is in my opinion the best book on
the subject. To be more precise the quote is on page 401 under the chapter ''The Astrology of War and Peace''.

Carl
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Carl Matthews



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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese,

Have you tried using the previous Lunar Cardinal ingresses in those Hurricane/Cyclone dates?

Carl
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carl wrote:
Quote:
I have the book that Stefan quoted from. Its ''Mundane Astrology'' by Baigent, Campion and Harvey, which is in my opinion the best book on the subject. To be more precise the quote is on page 401 under the chapter ''The Astrology of War and Peace''.

Thank you, Carl. I've been criticized on this forum for emphasizing the need for education for astrologers, but one thing we learn as we go on in school is to give full references for quotations. Stefan's quote is from a chapter by Charles Harvey ("Part 2, The Cyclical Background"), Mundane Astrology: An Introduction to the Astrology of Nations and Groups, (Baigent, Campion and Harvey), Thorsons, 1984 with reprints. I knew that quote had to belong to a specific person, and was very curious who that person was.

Mundane Astrology was published when only the Fagan-Allen ayanamsa was well known in western countries. This is why we see mention of that ayanamsa in books published before the so-called "Vedic" astrological foray into the west in the early 1990s (which began mainly in California, USA). Then it became known that other ayanamsas existed, imported from India.

Quote:
Have you tried using the previous Lunar Cardinal ingresses in those Hurricane/Cyclone dates?

No, for the Moon and weather I'd be much more likely to check New Moon charts. I just don't see any reason to use sidereal cardinal ingresses for a three month period or the lunar cardinal ingresses for a month as the sidereal zodiac has no reference to solstices and equinoxes. (But it never hurts to research different types of charts.)

Therese
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wan't to say that I have in no way decided yet which Ayanamsha is the best one to use.
And the title of the thread is in that way a bit misguiding, as my prime interest really was to see that the sidereal mode is good for these charts. And as it now to me is clear that it does. The ayanamsha question comes next. Krishnamurti is close to Fagan-Allen and it may take time and many charts to decide the differerence. I have focused mainly on Fagan-Allen here as it was what first did seem to produce best hits in the charts.

In fact there was one of the worst terror/racist deeds in this country this month in sweden where a young man with machete did go berserk in a school and killed people of foreign origin. My software had krishnamurti ayanamsha as default and looking at an ingress chart for that happening krishnamurti actually had closest angular hits, when comparing later with Fagan-Allen.

By now I feel a bit fed up and restless of this subject. Feeling to focus more on charts of individuals again, but will probably coming back to this subject more later, with a more mature insight into the matter, as learning goes often in spirals imo.

Therese,
I have had a very buisy week here with some 50 hours of working with dying terminal patients + family obligations.
About the book "Mundane astrology". I couldn't find it in my heaps of books and notes. So I did not bother to search for it much, as I did in fact wrote the name of the book and author in the thread. Lack of energy.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
Quote:
Krishnamurti is close to Fagan-Allen and it may take time and many charts to decide the differerence. I have focused mainly on Fagan-Allen here as it was what first did seem to produce best hits in the charts.

I really appreciate that you started this topic, Stefan, because I had never looked at most of the events you posted, and I've been learning a lot about Ingress charts. I had looked at earthquakes, but not war charts or hurricanes. As I said before, I think the Moon may be the primary key to Ingress charts since it's the only planet that changes a lot in the day's time between Fagan-Allen and Krishnamurti solar ingress charts.

Quote:
In fact there was one of the worst terror/racist deeds in this country this month in sweden where a young man with machete did go berserk in a school and killed people of foreign origin. My software had krishnamurti ayanamsha as default and looking at an ingress chart for that happening krishnamurti actually had closest angular hits, when comparing later with Fagan-Allen.

There have been many school massacre events lately in the world, but they are depressing for an astrologer to study. It's just insane that a person would go into a school and kill students. We had a similar event close by here recently when a man went into a school and asked all the children of a certain religion to stand up. Then he started shooting them.

I've been wondering lately if Ingress charts can show events caused by the free will of human beings, or can only show events of nature such as earthquakes. I don't really know the answer to that question without studying a lot of charts. We would have to check "non-event" ingress charts to see if difficult planetary patterns were active.

Quote:
I have had a very buisy week here with some 50 hours of working with dying terminal patients + family obligations.
About the book "Mundane astrology". I couldn't find it in my heaps of books and notes. So I did not bother to search for it much, as I did in fact wrote the name of the book and author in the thread. Lack of energy.

My daughter does that kind of work, and I know it can be totally draining and depressing. Anyway, you're doing better than I am, Stefan. So I'm looking for the page number that Carl posted, and I see that my page 401 is different than Carl's page 401. Now why is that?? Oh, I finally discovered that I'm looking for the page in The Book of World Horoscopes rather than Mundane Astrology. Hmmm....Now I must have Mundane Astrology around here somewhere!

So it's back to individual horoscopes in Extreme Sampling as time allows.

Therese
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since Carl asked about the sidereal lunar cardinal ingress charts, I thought I'd experiment with the lunar phase charts for The Haiphong typhoon that killed 300,000 Vietnamese people. Of course planets in lunar phase charts will be exactly the same in any zodiac including the tropical, but the signs will be different. (I'm not sure the signs matter.)

The September 23 New Moon chart before the October 8 date doesn't say much of anything as there are no planets near the angles. But the full Moon chart on October 7 is dramatic as so many planets contact an angle. (More comments below.)



The sidereal ascendant lord is Venus conjunct Uranus at the nadir and in partile square to the Moon's nodes. Saturn in its fall in Aries is trine Venus within a degree, and Neptune is in partile trine to Uranus at the nadir. Pluto is square the MC by one degree. The Moon, which seemed to be important in the Krishnamurti solar ingress charts is sextile the ascendant. As this is a full Moon chart, of course the Sun also aspects the ascendant from the 5th.

I don't know if houses have any meaning in these cyclic charts except that there are aspect points to the angles that would mark he cusps of equal houses. Trines seem to be just as important as square aspects.

For someone who has a lot of free time, it might be interesting to investigate lunar phase charts for weather events. As the Moon moves to fast, I don't know if cardinal lunar ingress charts would be significant. Of course Jim Eshelman and friends see them as important.
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Carl Matthews



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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

For someone who has a lot of free time, it might be interesting to investigate lunar phase charts for weather events. As the Moon moves to fast, I don't know if cardinal lunar ingress charts would be significant. Of course Jim Eshelman and friends see them as important.


Hi Therese,

I'm doing a big research study on Armagh (Northern Ireland) rainfall from 1900 to 2001. The main themes will be Lunar Phases, Sidereal (Fagan and Krishnamurti) and the Tropical - Lunar ingresses into the Cardinal signs.

I'm dividing the rainfall into 2 categories all weeks where there was over 50mm of rain and all weeks when no rainfall was recorded.

I'll post the results here as I go along, all the findings will eventually go on my website.

Carl
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carl wrote:
Quote:
I'm doing a big research study on Armagh (Northern Ireland) rainfall from 1900 to 2001. The main themes will be Lunar Phases, Sidereal (Fagan and Krishnamurti) and the Tropical - Lunar ingresses into the Cardinal signs.

Carl, let's see if I'm understanding what you are doing:

(1) Lunar phases: new, full, quarter moon (not sure if this is what you meant)

(2) Lunar cardinal ingresses: tropical, Fagan, Krishnamurti
(Does this mean you look at four charts per month for Aries, Libra, Cancer, Capricorn? You are looking only at angular positions within certain orbs??)

What is the rationale for using cardinal LUNAR ingresses?? Why doesn't it make more sense to use lunar phases, especially the new and full Moon charts??

Here in California we've had an extremely dry summer and fall. Just today it's started to rain constantly. From curiosity I set up the lunar phase charts. The full moon was yesterday. Taking only the closest planets aspecting angles in the full moon chart:

21 Leo 58 Jupiter
22 Sag 10 M.C.
23 Leo 20 Venus
23 Leo 55 Uranus in Pisces

(There were no planets near angles as close as these aspects.)

From the limited work I've done, I don't see that planets in angles are any more important than very close aspects to angles. These will usually be trines since each equal cuspal position is trine to one of the four angles. Moon in Aries was 6 degrees from the ascandant. (Though Valens says this is a stormy area of Aries.)

Carl, maybe you should start a separate thread for rainfall discussion? I looked at your web site, but your research processes weren't clear to me. Most especially I'm not at all clear why cardinal lunar ingresses should be significant compared to lunar phases.

Therese
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Carl Matthews



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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Carl, let's see if I'm understanding what you are doing:

(1) Lunar phases: new, full, quarter moon (not sure if this is what you meant)


Yes, all the phases.

Quote:
(2) Lunar cardinal ingresses: tropical, Fagan, Krishnamurti
(Does this mean you look at four charts per month for Aries, Libra, Cancer, Capricorn? You are looking only at angular positions within certain orbs??)


Yes, each cardinal ingress.
I'm looking at every point - sign placement, angular house (Placidus) placement, aspects to angles, midpoint contact to AS/MC.

Quote:
What is the rationale for using cardinal LUNAR ingresses?? Why doesn't it make more sense to use lunar phases, especially the new and full Moon charts??


From the work done by Bradley and his findings on Jupiter, Venus and the Moon in record rainfall. But we'll see if this works out with the research I'm doing. Apparently he discarded the Lunar phases as not useful. But I don't take anybody's word for granted.

Quote:
Here in California we've had an extremely dry summer and fall. Just today it's started to rain constantly. From curiosity I set up the lunar phase charts. The full moon was yesterday. Taking only the closest planets aspecting angles in the full moon chart:

21 Leo 58 Jupiter
22 Sag 10 M.C.
23 Leo 20 Venus
23 Leo 55 Uranus in Pisces

(There were no planets near angles as close as these aspects.)


Interesting the Venus and Jupiter the two rainmakers!

Quote:
Carl, maybe you should start a separate thread for rainfall discussion? I looked at your web site, but your research processes weren't clear to me. Most especially I'm not at all clear why cardinal lunar ingresses should be significant compared to lunar phases.


Good idea I'll do that when results come through.
Ok, the research on my website probably needs to be a bit easier to understand, you can always pm me and I'll try to explain.

Carl
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carl wrote:
Quote:
I'm looking at every point - sign placement, angular house (Placidus) placement, aspects to angles, midpoint contact to AS/MC.

This seems way too broad for me. I think there might be too much "noise." For myself, I'd discard midpoints for starters as well as signs. (This is because my mind likes everything clear and crisp!)

Quote:
Therese wrote:
What is the rationale for using cardinal LUNAR ingresses?? Why doesn't it make more sense to use lunar phases, especially the new and full Moon charts??

Carl replied:
From the work done by Bradley and his findings on Jupiter, Venus and the Moon in record rainfall. But we'll see if this works out with the research I'm doing. Apparently he discarded the Lunar phases as not useful. But I don't take anybody's word for granted.

As I've said often recently, we have to be skeptical of Bradley's research as it was so long ago and there is no hard data we can examine. I don't take anyone's word for granted either. I can't remember reading anything about Bradley discarding lunar phases. His research was long before the age of personal computers, so today we might be using totally different ways of looking at data.

I think trying to use solar type cycles (sign ingress charts) for lunar cycles isn't taking into consideration that the Moon has its own rhythm and cycles that don't have a relationship to the earth-sun relationship. This is no doubt why a lunar zodiac of 27 "mansions" has developed in India.

Quote:
Good idea [separate thread for rainfall] I'll do that when results come through.

We're going off topic here, so maybe eventually these last posts should be moved to a rainfall thread. I'll make this my final post on the rainfall subject here.

Quote:
Ok, the research on my website probably needs to be a bit easier to understand, you can always pm me and I'll try to explain.

Thank you, Carl, but I'll wait for a rainfall topic here on Skyscript. The usual state of my mind these days is tired and overworked, and I have a lot of writing to finish before I check out of this reality.

Therese
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