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Extreme Zodiac Sampling
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:50 pm    Post subject: Extreme Zodiac Sampling Reply with quote

EXTREME ZODIAC SAMPLING

The idea for this topic came from Stefan on the Indian forum who described David Crochane's suggestion of "extreme sampling" as a way to explore both the tropical and sidereal zodiacs. This might be describing one or more people who have a stellium of planets in a sign or perhaps the professions, life patterns or interests of a number of people with similar planets in a sign.

This topic is placed on the sidereal forum, but "extreme sampling" posts are welcome in either zodiac. The subject is somewhat complicated as my observation has been that there is only one set of influences for each segment of the ecliptic (whether a single degree or decan or nakshatra, etc.) and only the name of the sign changes between zodiacs.

So the challenge is to show the symbolism (in either zodiac) that explains those influences. For example, why is a sign either tropical Aries or sidereal Pisces? Maybe extreme sampling using real people can help or at least promote discussion.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To start off, here is Stefan's post on sidereal Pisces from the Tropical Vedic Skyscript topic:

Pisces asc, sun and Moon search
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algernon_Charles_Swinburne

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Swinburne,_Algernon

Poet, Died of alcoholic dysentery.

Compare with chart of Charles Baudelaire (not in this search) who had 7 planets + node in siderial pisces. may be fitting with what Cochrane means with "extreme sampling"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Baudelaire

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Baudelaire,_Charles

Poet

"You have to be always drunk. That’s all there is to it—it’s the only way. So as not to feel the horrible burden of time that breaks your back and bends you to the earth, you have to be continually drunk.
But on what? Wine, poetry or virtue, as you wish. But be drunk."
Charles Baudelaire
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Stefan



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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great Therese.
I provide the charts for these two Pisceans.
Baudelaire's chart is one that I am familiar with for some
time.





But Algernon's chart turned up in a random search for sidereal pisces
asc.Sun and Moon. And the chart have just as sort of impressing stellium in pisces as Baudelaire have. There seems to be som similar interests in these two
charts. Poetry and mind changing substances it seems. Maybe more if one digs into it.





Interesting is that both of them have exalted Venus in pisces. This is fitting as both venus and pisces are factors related to poetry.

S
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan, I’m really happy to see some charts on the forum to go with the discussion. To compare with your Pisces charts, in my files I found a project for sidereal Pisces (Krishnamurti) for an AstroDatabank search. There were at least 30,000 charts in ADB at that time. The databank has now grown to more than 50,000 charts for the few fortunate users who still have the program on their computers.

The search in my files asked for the Sun, Moon, Mercury and Venus and/or Mars in Pisces. Out of the entire databank only 19 charts fit those parameters. (If anyone wants the data for these charts, I can forward data in an email.) I eliminated the homosexual charts that showed up in the search because I know from many other searches that gay charts will always come up in a search due to the large number of those charts in ADB.

Sun, Moon, Mercury plus Venus and/or Mars in Sidereal Pisces:

Professionals
1 attorney
1 physician
1 physical therapist
1 executive and ad director

Entertainment Field
2 TV hosts
1 TV personality, well known historian and writer

Sports
1 basketball player

Birth related
1 set of triplets
1 special birth
1 child of royalty
1 c-section

1 UFO sighting

Crime
1 homicide
1 homicide victim
Barry Minkow, a swindler who reformed and converted to Christianity while in prison. He cheated investors and banks out of $100 million. After prison he lectured on fraud prevention, and wrote a book, Clean Sweep. In prison he earned B.A. and M.A. degrees through correspondence. He vowed to repay his victims. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Minkow,_Barry



Rodney King, News Figure
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/King,_Rodney

Rodney King was a black man who was savagely beaten by police in Los Angeles. The case made national headlines and landed in the courtroom. King had a substance abuse problem and multiple DUIs. King has also been arrested and charged with spousal and family abuse.



It would seem that King's ascendant lord Mars conjunct the explosive Uranus/Pluto combination is as much to blame for his disruptive life as Pisces planets which traditionally carry a Neptunian flavor. (In King's case substance and alcohol abuse.) If King's birth time is accurate, note that the natal Mars/Uranus/Pluto fall directly on his navamsa ascendant.

This search plus other zodiac searches I have done supports the energy observed in the tropical zodiac (This is the ecliptic area of tropical Aries.), but activities and interests relate more to sidereal sign lords. Searches like this one convinced me that tropical observations of sign energies are valid, but these energies seem to match the planets associated with sidereal signs. I know that astrologers will be very tired of hearing about this concept from me, but it’s central to the understanding of the sidereal zodiac. Too many astrologers still believe that sidereal signs are similar to tropical signs of the same name.

Professional occupations and a TV presence before millions suggest Jupiter rulership, and the Mars triplicity rulership suggests the outgoing, sometimes aggressive energy needed for those careers. I’m not sure if the childbirth-related charts are specific to Pisces. Sports didn’t really have a presence in this search except for one basketball player. Of course these are only a few cases, and we need more data. At this time I’m working on other types of Pisces searches.

TinyPic is no longer making chart diagrams the correct larger size for forums. Stefan, how are you posting your charts?

Therese
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:34 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Stefan



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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Therese

Funny. I sat with Rodney kings chart yesterday for awhile and had the thought of posting it subsequently in the thread.
Seems like substance abuse was a very central thing in his life as an ongoing theme. He was also in tv show in the reality show Dr Drew rehab. Where celebrities in public are
treated for drug addictions.
So he was the "Victim" a piscean theme in the public mind. But also had more violent sides as you described in your post. He died drowning in his own swimmingpool under influence of multi substance use.

"The county coroner ruled the death an accidental drowning and listed "alcohol and multiple drug toxicity" as contributing causes, saying that traces of cocaine, PCP and marijuana were found in King's body."

and:

"The effects of the drugs and alcohol, combined with an enlargement of his heart's main pumping chamber, probably caused an irregular heartbeat, "and the subject, thus incapacitated, was unable to save himself and drowned," the coroners concluded."

This might be associated with the Leo placement of his ascendant ruler, also in the 5H...afflicted.


Quote:
how are you posting your charts?


Therese I do make the charts smaller in my program and then cut them with the screen cut tool and upload to photobucket and repaste from there into the scyscript.



I have another interesting chart with some pisces emphasis which I post later on at some point. "the woman who shot Andy Warhol".
But I probably wait some for you if you have some others.


Best wishes
Stefan Very Happy


Last edited by Stefan on Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Stefan wrote:
Therese I do make the charts smaller in my program and then cut them with the screen cut tool and upload to photobucket and repaste from there into the skyscript.

I have another interesting chart with some pisces emphasis which I post later on at some point. "the woman who shot Andy Warhol".
But I probably wait some for you if you have some others.

Thank you, Stefan, for the hints on posting charts. I think I have it down now. Part of the problem for myself and others using the image posting sites is there are options now to select the size of an image due to larger monitors. In the past there was only one image size for forums that fit the smaller monitors.

Go ahead and post any other Pisces charts you have! It might take me a while to do other Pisces searches in ADB. I ran into a big problem with ADB last evening (my fault), and am still recovering from the trauma.

I made some changes in my previous post that included Rodney King's chart. I also posted Barry Minkow's chart (reformed swindler). Minkow converted to Christianity while in prison, and Pisces is supposed to be related to religion and/or spirituality.

I have a sister who is a Catholic nun, and she has the Sun directly on her ascendant at 16 degrees sidereal Pisces. She has the active outgoing rather thoughtless (spontaneous) Tropical Aries temperament, but her life has been devoted to religion and service--Jupiter, Neptune and Pisces symbolism.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sidereal Pisces Sun conjunct Pisces Ascendant (4 degree orb)

Since Sun signs seem to be important for astrologers in the west, I experimented with asking ADB for charts of a Pisces Sun conjunct a Pisces ascendant with a small orb of 4 degrees. Out of the huge database of more than 50,000 charts, there were only 23 charts that fit those parameters. As usual, I eliminated gay charts. Here are the results for the remaining charts:

Arts (Sun degrees included)
08.8 ballet director
09.7 Rowena Jackson, beloved prima ballerina
17.2 country western singer
18.3 Frieda Hughes, poet
23.3 Artist, heroin addiction, pattern of abusive drinking, married 4 times, the 4th to a poet

Occult and Astrology
07.6 witch (Wiccan)
08.8 astrologer, president of the Church of Light
16.4 Ry Redd, astrological author (reincarnation, Cayce’s astrology)
19,3 realtor with an interest in astrology and the occult
10.8 astrologer

Professional
03.7 physician
25.4 politician (conservative)

Sports
10.8 baseball player
18.6 race car driver

Valerie Solanas, militant lesbian feminist
(Her chart will be discussed in a separate post.)

Miscellaneous
UFO sighting; abandoned baby; 1 actor, 1 actress and a suicide

Except for the two sportsmen, none of these occupations can be specifically related to Mars. (Aries is the tropical ascendant with the Sun in this zodiacal area.) The Arts group suggests the Venus exaltation in Pisces (and for ballet, the Piscean rulership of the feet). The Astrological/Occult group may reflect the influence of Neptune. Professional occupations can be related to Jupiter.

Of all these charts, the only comprehensive personality sketch was given for Valerie Solanas in ADB, so I would like to discuss her chart in a separate post. (The birth data for all these charts can be sent via email to anyone who asks.)
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



In view of the zodiac question, Valerie Solanas’ chart is of special interest. As a “militant Lesbian Feminist” tropical astrologers could easily point to her Ascendant, Sun and Mercury in Aries. They will be emphasizing the “militant” however, and forgetting that as a Lesbian feminist, she is highlighting her female gender. Aries is a male sign while Pisces is female. Venus is also in Pisces in Valerie’s sidereal chart.

If sidereal astrologers want to understand their signs, I think they’ll have to look at the mythology of ruling planets. They may have no recourse but to consider that Cancer-Scorpio-Pisces carry energy that tropical astrologers give to their “fire” triplicity. This energy is due to the primary rulership of Mars to this triplicity as well as personality traits of the ancient Hellenistic gods, Zeus (Jupiter) and Poseidon (Neptune).

Originally signs of the zodiac were closely related to the mythology of their ruling planets. Jupiter threw thunderbolts, and Neptune swiftly driving his carriage and horses was a terror on the sea. Poseidon-Neptune used his trident to stir up the waves and create mighty destructive storms. He was also a rebel who refused to conform to rules laid down by Jupiter.

Viewing the sidereal zodiac, whoever assigned Mars to the Cancer-Scorpio-Pisces triplicity knew what they were doing. Returning to Valerie’s chart, her Ascendant, Sun and Mars are in the Terms of Mars, so their energy is in the service of Mars, and in her chart Mars is with Uranus, and both oppose the Moon.

There is an interesting similarity between Valerie’s chart and the chart of Rodney King (illustrated in an earlier post). In his natal chart Rodney has Mars, Uranus and Pluto on the (equal) 5th house cusp. Valerie’s navamsa chart has the same conjunction of Mars, Uranus and Pluto, and it falls on her natal 5th cusp. Jyotish teaches that the 5th house relates to the mind, intelligence and mental clarity, the ability to make sensible and intelligent decisions.

Rodney King led a tumultuous life fueled by drugs and alcohol. Valerie’s behavior throughout her life was emotional and erratic. She shot three men in anger because she felt she was being treated unfairly, and generally led an unstable and rebellious life. She was charged with reckless assault, went to prison and sent for psychiatric observation. Released from prison she harassed others through letters and phone calls. She had a drug problem, worked as a prostitute and at various times was confined to mental hospitals. She died in a welfare hotel in San Francisco.

So in both charts, Rodney King’s and Valerie Solanas’, the mind was damaged through the potent Mars-Uranus-Pluto conjunction in the 5th house. (For Jyotish astrologers, the 5th is also said to relate to past karma manifesting in this life.)

In Valerie's chart Mars and Uranus are conjoined in Aries and widely oppose the Moon. A tropical astrologer can point to the ascendant lord Mars conjunct Uranus (in Venus-ruled Taurus, however). In the sidereal zodiac this conjunction becomes personal because Valerie’s ascendant lord Jupiter conjoins Uranus/Mars from the navamsa. It’s generally the navamsa chart that truly describes a person’s individuality, particularly as it relates to the natal chart.
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Stefan



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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese wrote:
I have a sister who is a Catholic nun, and she has the Sun directly on her ascendant at 16 degrees sidereal Pisces. She has the active outgoing rather thoughtless (spontaneous) Tropical Aries temperament, but her life has been devoted to religion and service--Jupiter, Neptune and Pisces symbolism."



Incidentally my aunt have something similar.
Tropical ascendant with moon also in aries.
Sidereal ascendant and Moon in pisces.

She is wellknown in the family for her sudden outbursts of anger.
But her work is with disabled hildren in school. Children with different diagnosis like adhd autism et.c Very idealistic.
[/img]
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
Quote:
Incidentally my aunt has something similar.
Tropical ascendant with moon also in aries.
Sidereal ascendant and Moon in pisces.

She is well known in the family for her sudden outbursts of anger.
But her work is with disabled children in school. Children with different diagnosis like adhd autism et.c Very idealistic.

Very interesting, Stefan! My sister has devoted her life to helping the poor children in American Indian and Black communities. She has worked all her life in the schools in impoverished communities. She has no interest in any other lifestyle, even when I offered her a quiet place in the country to live for awhile.

My sister is also very idealistic and in a way lives in a dream world, as she is always cheerful and laughing. She has Jupiter on her navamsa ascendant in Sagittarius. (Jupiter for cheer, Sagittarius for a religious organization.) She has dedicated her life to Christ, and feels her duty is to give Christ to others.

Note her navamsa stellium of Scorpio planets which fall in her natal 9th house, Neptune on her natal 7th cusp and Uranus on the navamsa 7th cusp (celibate renunciate life). Note Ketu in the 10th and conjunct Jupiter from the navamsa. My sister's chart is a postcard for the life of a dedicated nun.


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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Stefan



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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice chart Therese....

I'm zooming in on the Nakshatra's of her Asc. and Asc ruler Jupiter.



Asc in revati nakshatra. This is the nakshatra ruled by Pushan the nurturer who cares for the soul's in transition.

"They are sweet caring responsible loving friends. They nourish and care for others. They have been known to provide foster care for others, children or animals. They have an affinity or love towards small animals. They love humanity and society. They love to be social because they sincerely love connecting to other people. They don’t have a mean or jealous bone in their body. There is a love of fine arts and they can be creative as well. Their caring for others can lead to co-dependency. There may be disappointment early in life, but this developed their compassion and sincere forgiveness of others. They are a bit weak and may be prone to childhood illnesses. They are mystics with complete faith in their beliefs and in the goodness of humanity. With their love of water, they usually benefit from living by the water. There is a deep devotion and faith to God. They are protected in all their travels especially the journey from this world to the next."


And the Ascendant lord Jupiter in Uttara phalguni Nakhatra.

Uttara phalguni is also a nakshatra of caring and patronage.

"Deity Aryaman, one of the Adityas, rules patronage, kindness, and favors. Bhaga and Aryaman are invoked together
It is called the "Star of Patronage" for their love of humanity and caring sincere nature. They want to alleviate the suffering in society. Basically "


From this site:
http://www.galacticcenter.org/content/view/127/78/
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good chart of Sister Jacinta.

Tropical Pisces Ascendant - congenial for a philosophical outlook -
having the touch of 9th lord indicating higher learning, religion, Dharma, truth, straight forwardness

Ascendant aspected by nice Jupiter(Ascendant Lord) leading to respectability in society

Venus afflicted and saturn in the 5th aspecting 7th distancing the individual from marriage and having own children

A conjunctive reading of all the above leads to the life described.

regards
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Map wrote:
Quote:
Tropical Pisces Ascendant - congenial for a philosophical outlook -
having the touch of 9th lord indicating higher learning, religion, Dharma, truth, straight forwardness

But Sister Jacinta's chart is sidereal. In the tropical zodiac her Ascendant and Sun are in Aries.
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Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Quote:
But Sister Jacinta's chart is sidereal. In the tropical zodiac her Ascendant and Sun are in Aries.



Yes. In tropical it shows the ascendant at 00:24. It is on the border. An error of about 1.5 minutes in the TOB will change the ascendant and this error is quite possible. The ascendant is extremely sensitive and one should be careful before accepting such border cases.

I am sure that the ascendant is pisces. It is 100% not possible to be what she is without 9th touch and jupiter aspect.

regards
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Map wrote:
Quote:
Yes. In tropical it shows the ascendant at 00:24. It is on the border. The ascendant is extremely sensitive and one should be careful before accepting such border cases.

But there's no way that 17 degrees in the sidereal zodiac converts to Pisces in the tropical zodiac. The difference between the Krishnamurti and tropical zodiacs in 1945, Sister Jacinta's birth year, is 7 degrees. Subtracting 7 from 17 gives a tropical ascendant of 10 degrees of Aries. (I am rounding off Jacinta's ascendant from 16° 53' to 17°.)

Quote:
I am sure that the ascendant is pisces. It is 100% not possible to be what she is without 9th touch and jupiter aspect.

In the sidereal chart Jupiter is on the Sagittarius navamsa ascendant, and the stellium of navamsa Scorpio planets goes to the natal 9th house. Also in the sidereal chart the Sun is in mutual reception with Jupiter in Leo, a very powerful connection. The navamsa Moon is on the exact degree of the (equal) natal 9th house cusp.

I don't believe that it's possible to correctly read a birth chart without a correct navamsa chart. This is why I use the Krishnamurti ayanamsa after many years of research.
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