jupiter / saturn conjunction for 2020

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first off, i have a question for any knowledgeable reader/poster here on the topic of the jupiter /saturn conjunction and its importance historically for astrologers of the past. in reading one of ben dykes latest books - astrology of the world 11 and abraham ibn ezras 'the book of the world', and going on memory here, these conjunctions are broken down in priority according to the ju/sa conjunction that first takes place in aries, followed by any ju/sa conjunction that first takes place in a new triplicity, and finally any ju/sa conjunction.. obviously this will hinge on what zodiac you are using!

leaving that aside for the moment my question is this - we had a ju/sa conjunction in libra in 1981 or thereabouts, followed by a ju/sa conjunction in taurus in 2000 or thereabouts.. this next one for 2020 is in aquarius.. the following group will remain in the air element tropically speaking until the next triplicity change a long ways from now.. would the first ju/sa conjunction in libra mark the most important air conjunction in the air series, or would this one into aquarius be treated more significantly? tough question and maybe their is no objective answer, but that is my question.. i would be curious to know what the traditional astrologers of the past would have used to establish the hierarchy of importance on these ju/sa conjunctions.. as i said in my first paragraph - the one that first enters to approx the beginning of aries was considered the most important, followed by any conjunction that initiated a series of conjunctions into a new triplicity, followed by your regular run of the mill every 20 odd year ju / sa conjunction which are considered of less importance.. thanks..

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what i got from these books is the importance of the aries ingress charts around the time of the actual jupiter/saturn conjunction.. as it turns out the approx date for the conjunction is dec 21st 2020. the conjunction happens at approx 0 aquarius 29.. it just so happens that another important conjunction happens at the beginning of the year on jan 12 2020. this is the saturn/pluto conjunction at about 22 capricorn 46, with the sun again in capricorn and very close to the degree of this conjunction of saturn/pluto.. it would seem to me that as a result of these 2 conjunctions happening within less then a year of one another, that the aries ingress chart for 2020 would take on more significance.. perhaps it would also take on greater relevance given the complete switch into the air triplicity of the jupiter/saturn conjunction..

i am still interested in any thoughts anyone has on the question in my first post.. if anyone wants to look at the 2020 conjunction set to the capital in saudi arabia, i have shared both the jupiter/saturn and the saturn/pluto conjunction charts in the thread dedicated to saudi arabia. i am planning on using this thread to show more of these ju/sa conjunctions set to different locations.

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Hello James,

I haven't checked any sources yet but from memory I seem to recall the traditional hierarchy of Jupiter-Saturn Conjunctions was:

1 Grand mutation in Aries
2 Great mutation in fire triplicity
3 Mutation of triplicity
4 Standard conjunction

However, it needs to be said that medieval astrology usually didn't rely on the exact positions of the planets but estimated their position through 'mean conjunctions'. This piece from Ben Dykes sets out this system in considerable detail.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mean_conjunctions.html

The great Perso-Arabic astrologers Masha?allah and Abu'Mashar were the main pioneers of this technique and related it to the rise of dynasties and religions. One advantage of this approach to conjunctions is that it allows a much smoother transition from one triplicity to another.

Conceptionally although based on the exact timing of planetary cycles (using Ptolemaic epicycles) this results in a purely symbolic system which bears no relationship to the actual position of the planets in the sky. Even in the medieval period this approach had its critics. For example the astrologer Ibn Ezra mocked the approach adopted by Abu Ma'Shar.

Still, in a medieval period where totally accurate astronomical tables were hard to obtain it is not difficult to see why this approach continued in the astrology of European figures like Roger Bacon or Pierre d'Ailly usually integrated with Christian Apocalypticism.

This article by Laura Ackerman Smoller gives a flavour of how the historical astrology of Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions often combined with febrile prophetic beliefs in Europe during the medieval period:

http://www.mille.org/publications/Confpro98/SMOLLER.PDF

For example, astrological writings on the great conjunction of 7 planets in Pisces 1524 and suggestions it might preasage another great flood caused hysteria in some parts of Europe:

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/ast ... efour.html

http://images.sciencesource.com/preview ... Q4002.html

A lot of this kind of astrology was in pamphlets and often of poor quality Overall, this kind of apocalyptic astrology did a lot to undermine the reputation of astrology and helped bring about its ultimate decline in Europe.

A useful, warning for astrologers today seeking to leap into the field of global prognostication!

Apart from the change in the religious attitudes of most astrologers today one clear difference between ourselves and the medieval astrologers is that today we can draw up charts for the exact timing of a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction. Medieval astrologers lacked the astronomical knowledge to do this.

We also know that planets do not move in epicycles so I dont see much logic in continuing the method proposed by Abu Ma'Shar myself. I tend to agree with John Frawley that certain things need to move forward even in the hyper conservative area of traditional astrology. For example in Ptolemy's time they couldn't calculate exact charts for an ingress as they couldn't calculate to that degree of accuracy. However, they could exactly calculate lunation charts so the nearest lunation to the ingress was used. With greater astronomical precision the Arabs were able to precisely calculate ingress charts. I would argue we are in a similar position today in our modern ability to calculate Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions.

But of course if we agree to discard the purely symbolic system of mean conjunctions and look at the actual placement of conjunctions we have a problem. Not least the rather inconvenient fact that shifts by triplicity dont occur occur neatly from one element to another.

Most recently we have had the fact that the triple Jupiter-Saturn triple conjunctions of 198-1 were in Libra. Followed by one last conjunction in 2000 in Taurus. However, with the next conjunction in Aquarius we will see a century of conjunctions in the air triplicity.

So when do we see the great mutation beginning? 1981 or 2020 CE?

I think the best way to resolve this is to look at historical trends of previous mutations. Especially, any possible effects of one conjunction going against the movement to the new triplicity. I confess I haven't done as much work on this as I would like but its a future research project I have planned.

While my views are by no means fixed in this area my way of working at present is that the change of mutation already began in 1981.

I see the conjunction of 2000 CE as one last hurrah for the earth triplicity themes so that during 2000-2020 we see an interaction of the two forces at work and to some extent in conflict.

The Great Mutation of 1981 in Libra

I would identify three major historical developments that I would link to the great mutation began in 1981

The Collapse of the Soviet Union and its bloc

The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1990 and the independence of eastern Europe after decades of Soviet control was clearly an epoch making period that followed the Great Conjunction of 1981 reaching its opposition.


IT & Social Media

The tremendous growth of information technology and social media all seem linked to the air triplicity. In 1980 there was no internet, personal computers, Facebook, Twitter, mobile phones. We have clearly seen a global social revolution in the last 30 odd years that has effected every single person on the planet. This fits perfectly into the air triplicity with its focus on communication.

The Rise of China

Another major theme of the last few decades that can be almost exactly timed to the beginning of conjunctions in air is the rise of China. The economic growth of China over the last few decades has been quite phenomenal to the extent that it is now the 2nd largest economy in the world. Astrologically modern China has a chart that is heavily Libran so one would expect it to be a country to have come into prominence during this period.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/countries/china.php

The Taurus Conjunction of 2000


So how to we square this conjunction with was is said before?

To me the conjunction going against the previous one represents a transitional phase with elements of the great mutation and this last conjunction combined.

Its been said before that Taurus is about land and territory. Issues around land, resources and food seem a natural theme of this period. We might also expect themes around the earth itself.

So what themes have we seen in this period?

-Climate Change becomes an increasingly large issue of global political significance with numerous Climate Change conferences and growiing evidence of climate change across the world.

-Issues over diminishing gas and oil reserves vs the move to renewable energy. Many have argued the Iraq war was more a resource war to secure oil reserves for the US than a dedicated campaign commitment to remove dictatorships.

- Conflicts over introduction of GMO crops

-The Arab-Israeli conflict deteriorates further following the assassination of Israeli PM Rabin in 1995. Subsequent Israeli governments allow growing Israeli settlements in the West Bank. This contributes to the Palestinian intifada of 2000 and a massive escalation of terrorist attacks in Israel. Israel reacts by constructing a security wall between itself with Gaza and the West Bank. Gaza elects an Islamic fundamentalist government led by the Hammas party.

But undeniably the major theme in this period is the rise of violent Jihadi Salafi Islam which draws religious inspiration from Wahhabi Islam of Saudi Arabia. This burst onto world view with the 9/11 attacks and the founding of a Saudi inspired Salafi regime in Afghanistan in 2001 by the Taliban.

I will not try and summarise all the subsequent history of Jihadi Islam over the last 15 years.

The question is how this ties into the current period astrologically?

I think the upsurge of this highly dogmatic and conservative type of religious traditionalism could be linked to Taurus and an attempt to return to the past. However, movements like ISIL /Daesh are a strange hyprid of old and new with their bloody medieval beliefs fused with their use of the latest IT, Social Media and weapons to carry out their political objectives. Could this be a fusion of the Libra/Taurus themes?

The Conjunction of 2020 in Aquarius?

I am still considering this. Looking at the last great time of consecutive great conjunctions in history in the air triplicity (approximately 1200-1400) we saw the Renaissance in Europe and the rediscovery of ancient knowledge.

I would suggest China will continue its rise in this period and overtake the USA as the global superpower. The conjunction of 2020 falls on China's ASC and is also very close to its Moon in the chart for modern China.

Of course if you want to follow the tradition of countries=signs the focus on Aquarius could bring attention to Russia.

I will come back at a later point on my thoughts for what the 2020 conjunction may mean.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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thanks mark,

that is an excellent overview here and one of the reasons you are such a valuable asset to skyscript. thanks!

i agree with you that it's counter-productive to come to any quick conclusion on any of it. i would also suggest that those living in the present always believe it is more significant then times in the past or future. it is for us living in this time, but it is hard to know how this time/era will be perceived at a different time/era..

i think you make some valid astro parallels with your commentary in relation to the present time. this is also tricky to do, as we can always squeeze a particular focus a particular way to make it fit our general astro viewpoint/s.. i think we are all guilty of this, so i am not picking on you when i say this.

after reading ibn ezra, i did become aware of the different views on different astrologers - not that i was surprised to read these views expressed by ibn ezra on abu mashar and etc.. i am sure it was much the same previously as it might be today.. different schools of thought would be viewed very differently depending on who one got the info from.

i thought it was interesting your referencing the 1949 chart for china.. the use of national charts is a mixed bag for me.. i have said this before.. with so many to choose from, i have found myself gravitating towards the use of ingress charts more then national charts.. maybe i am being too extreme in this approach? i don't know..

finally on a last note, i recall the jupiter/saturn conjunction triplicity changes as having a connection to the religion of islam, christianity and judiasm.. not sure what this means for the other important religions of the world today, but the theory went along the line that the ju/sa conjunction in scorpio was the beginning of islam.. the one in leo - christianity and the one in aquarius - judaism.. as a consequence ibn ezra gave a very different read for saturn in the 9th house for a person of the judaic faith then he did for those who practiced islam or christianity.. i don't know how much one can take the symbolism and apply it this way, but from memory this is how i understand ibn ezras approach to natal astrology as it connects back to the jupiter/saturn cycle and ones religious orientation. ibn ezra also emphasized any ingress chart that had the ju/sa conjunction in the 3rd or 9th house as the possibility of a religious savoir or important figure being born at this particular time, or coming out of this time frame.. these are little ideas i have picked up from reading the ibn ezra books..

thanks again for your comments.

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James_M wrote:
i would also suggest that those living in the present always believe it is more significant then times in the past or future. it is for us living in this time, but it is hard to know how this time/era will be perceived at a different time/era..
I couldn't agree more. There is a natural human tendency to feel we live in particularly significant times. Hence the appeal of apocalyptic thinking in monotheistic faiths like Christianity and Islam. I think we need to try and remain as detached as possible doing mundane astrology but noone can do this completely.
i think you make some valid astro parallels with your commentary in relation to the present time. this is also tricky to do, as we can always squeeze a particular focus a particular way to make it fit our general astro viewpoint/s.. i think we are all guilty of this, so i am not picking on you when i say this.
I agree and its retrospective analysis as well. And I am sure I have my biases in what I see (or dont see!)
i thought it was interesting your referencing the 1949 chart for china.. the use of national charts is a mixed bag for me.. i have said this before.. with so many to choose from, i have found myself gravitating towards the use of ingress charts more then national charts.. maybe i am being too extreme in this approach? i don't know..
Well its a lot clearer for modern China than most other countries as we dont have a plethora of charts to choose from. A lot of traditional astrologers would use Ptolemy's system of assigning signs to countries. However, I am sceptical about the practicality of this despite the occasional hit it can give.

Interesting you citing ingress charts against my approach of using a national chart. I thought I was the traditionalist here! I would obviously use them too. Although its an incredible amount of hard slog to pick up countries likely to be prominent from ingress charts.
finally on a last note, i recall the jupiter/saturn conjunction triplicity changes as having a connection to the religion of islam, christianity and judiasm.. not sure what this means for the other important religions of the world today, but the theory went along the line that the ju/sa conjunction in scorpio was the beginning of islam.. the one in leo - christianity and the one in aquarius - judaism.. as a consequence ibn ezra gave a very different read for saturn in the 9th house for a person of the judaic faith then he did for those who practiced islam or christianity.. i don't know how much one can take the symbolism and apply it this way, but from memory this is how i understand ibn ezras approach to natal astrology as it connects back to the jupiter/saturn cycle and ones religious orientation. ibn ezra also emphasized any ingress chart that had the ju/sa conjunction in the 3rd or 9th house as the possibility of a religious savoir or important figure being born at this particular time, or coming out of this time frame.. these are little ideas i have picked up from reading the ibn ezra books..
Your raising a quite enormous topic here James that is much bigger than this thread. Here are a couple of quotes that will hopefully help clarify your question.
We say that, since Jupiter is by nature an indicator of faith, and the differences of faiths in periods, religions and dynasties are from its mixture... If it (Jupiter) is mixed with Saturn, it indicates that the faith of the people of that religion is Judaism, which is similar to the essence of Saturn, since the <other> planets apply to it, and it does not apply to any planet among them. Similarly, the people of all other faiths confess Judaism, but it does not confess them (their faiths). Most of them will do what is similar to this religion or the like. If the mixer with it is Mars, it indicates the worship of fire and the faith of Mazdaism. If the mixer with it is the Sun, it indicates the worship of the planets, idols, and the marvellous. If the mixer with it is Venus, it indicates revealed religion, and monotheism, like Islam and the like. If the mixture with it is Mercury, it indicates Christianity, and every faith containing antipathy, doubt, and trouble. If the mixer with it is the Moon, it indicates doubts, confusion, ta?f?l, apostasy, and distrust in the faith, and what is because of the quick change of the Moon and its movement, and because of its short stay in each of the signs.
Abu Ma'shar - The Book of Religions and Dynasties: On the Great Conjunctions - Edited and translated by Charles Burnett and Keiji Yamamoto and published by Brill 2000
...there are specific reasons also why Venus was the planet ruling Islam: It was the Dawr ruler (an important chronocrator in mundane astrology) and ruler of the Ascendant of the chart indicating the rise of Islam, the chart of the conjunction indicating shift of the triplicity - Cf The Astrological History of Masha'allah by David Pingree and E.S. Kennedy
There was another tradition of linking each of the monotheistic faiths to their day of worship and its planetary day ruler:

Friday=Islam=Venus
Saturday=Judaism=Saturn
Sunday=Christianity

Regarding a chart for the founding of Islam I refer you to this Skyscript thread on the topic where it is exhaustively explored.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=53402

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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I found one important thread by Dr.H relevant to this topic worth revisiting:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5307

One important thing I observed is to consider the placement of other planets as well (apart from JSC placement).
For example, for JSC 2000, 4 planets (including Venus - ruler of the Taurus) is in Gemini - which could very well explain the recent social media boom. Also Mark Zuckerberg N.Node in Gemini is conjunct the Sun/Gemini of the JSC 2000.

Vasanth

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Thanks Vasanth,

I vaguely recalled we had had a good thread on this before but forgot when.

Some very good points by Dr. H I had largely forgotten. I see he also emphasizes the social media link to air/Libra I suggested above. I am coming round to his view that the 1981 conjunction presaged the rise of fundamentalist Islam (even though the Iranian revolution took place in 1979).

The traditional ingress chart for the rise of Islam has Jupiter-Saturn in Scorpio with a Libra ascendant. This is certainly the chart the Perso-Arabic astrologers seem to have favoured. Although on my software set for Mecca I come up with an extremely late Scorpio rising chart for the ingress of 571 tied to the great mutation in the water triplicity.

Thanks

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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thanks mark and vasanth..

i will look over the other thread when i have some time.

mark, i forgot to mention that andre barbault had predicted the fall of the soviet union years in advance based off the saturn/uranus/neptune conjunction in 88/89 area... i suppose one could tie it into the last ju/sa in earth from 1981 too, but my own thought on that is that we need to acknowledge the outer planets as having a role to play in world events. i raise this point as i continue to believe the proximity of the saturn/pluto conjunction to the ju/sa conjunction - both happening in 2020 on both ends of the year - mark 2020, and possibly 2019, and 2021 as important charts for consideration with regard to the aries ingress.
Mark wrote: Interesting you citing ingress charts against my approach of using a national chart. I thought I was the traditionalist here! I would obviously use them too. Although its an incredible amount of hard slog to pick up countries likely to be prominent from ingress charts.
Mark
i thought that was pretty funny too! actually we probably have more then a few things in common here.. i continue to have difficulty with charts for nations... the usa charts for consideration is a good example of the problem.. what i would say is that it is an incredible amount of hard slog to pick up countries likely to be prominent via national charts as well.. instead we can acknowledge from a study of the past when countries dominate world events.. the sun never sets on the british empire - until it does.. what astrologer was predicting this? is anyone predicting this for the dominant players on the world stage today - usa, china, russia?

using a national chart is indeed very difficult.. i don't trust much of what i have seen from astrologers off of them.. charts of leaders is a better way to go for me personally.

anyway - i continue to think there is value in the aries ingress charts.. my desire here was for feedback on the triplicity change and you have given me lots to consider. thanks for that!