I didn't mean to hijack the Shekinah thread so I'll start this one over here.

Though it may be a fairly short discussion TS . . .

Belief has it's basis in some rationale ... even if the rationale isn't always apparant. Perhaps the wisdom lies in suspending judgement until the rationale becomes apparant and is understood?
One versus the other?
What if Fate = the Ultimate Destination and Free Will = all the choices under the Sun as to how they arrive at that ultimate destination? That Fate & Free Will work hand-in-hand instead of either/or?

. . . I think we're reading from the same page (consider my "vs" to be a slip of the finger on account of that's how it's usually portrayed).

May we use the allegory of a roadmap? Everyone enters life with a map which has certain towns and cities leading eventually to a destination (destiny). The routes you take however, whether highways or backroads, are up to the individual (free will).

Some roads may be a glorious ride through beautiful countryside. Other roads may present dirt tracks, bridges, roadblocks, detours, snowfalls or deserts, roads washed out etc. One can clamber over/around/through and persist in following this particular route no matter how difficult - or allow this manifestation of destiny/fate to nudge us (back) on to the route to the next town on our map.

Everyone's map is individual and made just for them. The route choices we make/take will affect our enjoyment of the journey and the speed with which we reach our destination. Bear in mind, someone else's destination may also have a different name to the destination on my map. I am also quite happy to accept that everyone else's map is completely different from mine (written in a different language, showing a different country or indeed the same language, same country but different towns and destination).

(And Skyscript is a roadside cafe where we've stopped to stretch our legs and minds and meet with fellow travellers and gather sustenance? )

So perhaps the map is our natal chart? Perhaps the progressed, solar, lunar returns, horaries etc are the more detailed maps we've bought along the way because we wanted more information than our original one provided? Perhaps the aspects are an indication of the condition of the road/route we've chosen for this part of the journey?

Guess it depends on what verse one chooses to sing

Yup!

Simply a thought.

Nope! This is core belief


Hi Kenneth

In the modern world we could consider "fate" to be the result of "natural laws," such as the attraction of magnetic north and south, E=mc^2, the orbits of the planets, etc.

Destiny is where you actually end up as a result of free will and fate. It's your landmark destinations.

I had always thought fate and destiny to be interchangeable terms and a quick look at my Concise OED this morning confirmed that (altho' maybe contrary to Andrew's opinion I really can't read )

You do a lot of choosing to create your own destinies.

Nope! That is destiny singular, the end of the journey - tho' I think this is going to end up a discussion of semantics until I can get to my dictionary, 'cos some meetings/visits are pre-destined?

Your destinations are not totally free will

Correct, see nudging above

And not forgetting of course. . . everything I've said could be wrong

Sungem

Oops! This was supposed to end up in the Philosopy forum I've got real problems with my life map if I can't get the forum directions straight!!

. . I think we're reading from the same page ...

Yes, I think we are too.

Re: Simply a thought.
Nope! This is core belief

hmmm ? but aren?t simplified thoughts core beliefs?
The simple thought being the one that lies at the core of a belief construct? This simplified form being the one to which we add all the decorative trimmings?

I had always thought fate and destiny to be interchangeable terms?

Yes, but perhaps there? s a duality within fate/destiny?
Although both point to a single destination, 'Fate' suggests an ending, 'Destiny' suggests an arrival (to extend that idea, arrival at a new beginning).
Endings and beginnings occur within 1 step, as something ends it makes way for something new to emerge. Perspective.

So perhaps while choice (Free Will) helps shape the qualitative experience, and perhaps number of choices has a certain correspondence to number of experiences, when the time comes to shuffle off this mortal coil the multitude of choices narrows to a single decision (Fate/Destiny) ? that single decision denoting both an ending to one way of being and arrival at a new way of being?

1 (destination) = 2 (the convergence of two realms).
1 (destination) + 2 (convergence of two realms) = 3 (an expanded way of being/understanding).

Hi TS
Re:

Simply a thought.

At first reading this differed from "simplified thoughts" and "simple thought" so I have no problem with

aren?t simplified thoughts core beliefs?

However, I probably came at this from the other end...

This simplified form being the one to which we add all the decorative trimmings?

...the paring down, rather than the building up - but I can appreciate that different people approach this from different directions and perhaps I just don't remember the building process.

Yes, but perhaps there? s a duality within fate/destiny?
Although both point to a single destination, 'Fate' suggests an ending, 'Destiny' suggests an arrival (to extend that idea, arrival at a new beginning).

It's interesting that you should say this - now that I'm home with my OED again (which I'll get to in a minute) the entry under fate includes PHRASES seal someone's fate make it inevitable that something unpleasant will happen to someone
When did fate attain the exclusively negative context? Is this an allusion to the 3 Fates? Specifically Atropos who cuts the thread of life? (I'm on shaky ground here with dim memories of Piers Anthony and Bullfinch).
However I do agree...

Endings and beginnings occur within 1 step, as something ends it makes way for something new to emerge. Perspective.

Ah yes - and how the view changes.

perhaps number of choices has a certain correspondence to number of experiences

I have also personally noticed that certain "lessons" keep presenting in different guises until the "nudging" takes effect.

1 (destination) = 2 (the convergence of two realms).
1 (destination) + 2 (convergence of two realms) = 3 (an expanded way of being/understanding).

QED...can't remember what it stands for... but I do know it means The Answer


Hi Kenneth
I meant to be neither glib nor discourteous, so let me try again and so that I know where I'm coming from (let alone anyone else!)...

Fate n. 1 the development of events outside a person's control, regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power. 2 the outcome of a particular situation for someone or something, especially the end of a person's life. 3 (the Fates) the three godesses (Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos) who preside over the birth and life of humans. v. (be fated) be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way.

destiny n. events that will necessarily happen to a particular person in the future. >the hidden power believed to control this; fate.

This would seem as though

Deterministic science is essentially an effort to reduce the world to fatalism. The scientists who promote this world view above all others are what I would call fatalistic.

...most of them are going to end up where most of us start?

Destiny is where you actually end up as a result of free will and fate. It's your landmark destinations. You do a lot of choosing to create your own destinies

You see, I don't know that we do create our destiny - there simply may be different versions of it depending on the choices/free will that we exercised on the way to reaching it. Oh...maybe that is creating it?

Your destinations are not totally free will, but you work with the genes and natal configuration that you've been given.

I think I actually agree with you! (whew)

best wishes,
Sungem

PS - would someone care to meet me over in Horary? - (let's hope she gets it right this time! )

Hi Sungem,

QED...can't remember what it stands for... but I do know it means The Answer

QED ? ?quod erat demonstradum? or ?quod est demonstratum? ? or use of a little square. Pythagorus: ?all is number?.

Seem to recall Plato(?) mentioning arithmetic should be studied for its intrinsic value, not for the purpose of commerce.

QED = 1,5,4 = Sun, Mercury, Uranus = 10 ? The Wheel of Fortune.
Seems the intrinsic value illuminates ?fortune? ? and one that doesn?t necessarily reside in a commercial bank account. Currency of a different kind.

Thanks for sharing your time.

Warm regards,
TS

well First,

?quod est demonstratum? is generally translated as " That has been demonstrated"

but to the thought fate vs free will

I generally think Fate is what happens to you when you dont deliberately choose to make conscious decisions. When you consciously choose to respond to life, it becomes Destiny... just an off thought to throw out there.

Granny

to quickly add ...

the entry under fate includes PHRASES seal someone's fate make it inevitable that something unpleasant will happen to someone
When did fate attain the exclusively negative context?

perhaps this has a corresponding link back in time to the interpretations for Saturn ... and perhaps also to King Solomon and his Seal.

Hi Granny,

well First,

?quod est demonstratum? is generally translated as " That has been demonstrated"

yes, was/is written at end of mathematical proofs/theorems to show that the result required for the proof to be complete has been obtained.

Guess it could also be Quantum Electrodynamics ... or Quietly Enduring Discoveries that Quickly Engender Delight!

Warm regards,
TS

Hi Granny & TS

Thanks to you both for clearing up the QED!
Granny:

I generally think Fate is what happens to you when you dont deliberately choose to make conscious decisions. When you consciously choose to respond to life, it becomes Destiny

I do see what you're saying with conscious/unconscious connotations, however I'm not sure that I've ever made that distinction. I think I've lumped them together (interchangeably as I said above), in the respect that if "it" did or didn't work out - no matter what action I had or had not taken - then "it" was being handled by fate/destiny. Another "nudge" to stop and rethink the action or lack of.

I still find it interesting that we each have a slightly different view of that word fate. It has me positively intrigued that the OED should say that it's "bad".
TS:

perhaps this has a corresponding link back in time to the interpretations for Saturn ... and perhaps also to King Solomon and his Seal.

Well, I've had a quick look around Solomon and while his ring summoned both angels and demons to do his bidding, I couldn't really find anything directly related to fate.

Saturn may hold something, to quote Bullfinch (which is the only reference of this kind that I have) -

The representations given of Saturn are not very consistent; for on the one hand his reign is said to have been the golden age of innocence and purity, and on the other he is descibed as a monster who devoured his children.

This paragraph is footnoted with:
This inconsistency arises from considering the Saturn of the Romans the same with the Grecian deity Cronos (Time), which, as it brings an end to all things which have had a beginning, may be said to devour its own offspring.
...so that may bear further investigation - and I haven't got to the Fates yet.

I'll be back if I can find something worthwhile to pass on...of course that could depend on your definition of worthwhile

cheers,
Sungem

Guess it could also be Quantum Electrodynamics ... or Quietly Enduring Discoveries that Quickly Engender Delight!

You just didn't have enough else to occupy your mind yesterday TS!

Tumbling Sphinx, and Sungem
fate and fatal are connected words hence the negative connoctation.

Destiny is or destined is a more neutral word. Though it is more often used in a positive sense.

OED uses the root word fatal for fate, ergo negative.

TS, interesting alternatives for QED, I'm not certain that your maths tutor would be happy with you however. Lovely grand Trine going on today Mars and Neptune conj at 17 Aqu, Moon at 17 -20 Gemini and Jupiter at
12 Libra...

Granny

Hi there,

Wot a clever Granny you are!
While I had read through the fate entry to fatum I didn't look around at the other words for relationships - blame it on the Sungem tendency for skimming - you have no doubt saved me a fruitless search after red herrings. (I've even been spelling poor Bulfinch's name wrong again - I had this problem when we first met - comes of not reading the cover of the book you're looking in )

Though that leads me to wonder. . . nooooo, I'm no Latinist and I think it's probably time to bury this bone - (as I've said elsewhere recently) an answer is an answer is an answer.

Thanks to both you and TS for your interest and patience

Sungem

Hi Sungem & Granny,

It?s been a pleasure and thank you both for the opportunity.

The negative interpretation of Fate and its correspondence with the negative associations given to Saturn I think perhaps draws from Saturn's description in certain areas as the Lord of Fate, Time, Karma etc the negative views of Saturn and its associate Fate not always having been the way as touched upon by Andrew & Kevin in their recent thread on ?Sepharial?s Lilith? (pge 3) under Nativities & General Astrology, ie:

Andrew: ?Bernard Eccles' article on astrological physiognomy illustrates very well how traditional interpretations of astrological tradition may not be so traditional after all. Perhaps modern attempts to portray Saturn in a less than malefic light might be closer to the primal tradition of astrology than the medievalists and jyotishis might like?.

Kevin: ?In two alternate Greek cosmologies, those of Pherekydes and the Orphic, he is presented solely as a beneficent procreative presence, a protector of the good. Religiously he is the ruler of the "Golden Age, when "oppression and labour, the constraints of everyday life, did not yet hold sway (Burkert, Greek Religion)?.

Positive-negative I think is subjective in line with culture, experience, education, perception etc of the prevailing times.

If memory serves, a significant period where Saturn as the Great Malefic or planet of ?death? received this emphasis was during the ?dark ages? when the life span of the average person was I think around 30 years ? close to the Saturn return. Saturn also representing a limit, an end to the known realm.

The Fates ? the daughters of ?necessity? again have correspondences to Saturn, that all living things eventually submit to these three divine daughters, which ties back to the Pythagorean/Aristotlean philosophies on nature?s law of 3 ? touched upon in the recent thread with Andrew ?Application Within Three Degrees? ? the number three connecting with Saturnian themes via 4 ? Uranus in numerology - or the quadrature aspect.

I mentioned King Solomon as he seemed representative of Saturnian themes, his rule having been 'golden? and ?peaceful' (Solomon meaning Sun & peace) before his ?fall from grace? ? in addition to his seal (hexagram/ pentagram) and the societal light within which this ?seal? was regarded during the ?dark ages? which from what I understand was largely based upon the fear and superstition of the unknown, ie. unknown as to what it represented.

In addition Solomon?s Seal (the plant) is ruled by Saturn (which rules over roots) and the root of this plant which is edible and has medicinal properties is said to be best eaten after boiling in 3 changes of water.
In gemology Saturn is associated with the blue sapphire which is said to show it?s effect within 3 seconds, 3 minutes or 3 days ? the theme of three continuing to repeat.
And 3 of Saturn's rings are visible through a telescope (7 in total?) with some theories having Saturn positioned closer to earth, situated above the North Pole around 3000BC (The Golden Age ... or Age of Gods? Sorry, again going by memory).
It would seem the law of 3 is still very operative in wordly matters.

I guess the negative/positive attributes accorded Fate largely depends on how one views their boundaries & responsibilities ? boundaries/responsibilities perhaps evidenced in some ways by a person wearing a ring on their Saturn finger (middle finger).

I agree Sungem, it?s all interconnected!

TS, interesting alternatives for QED, I'm not certain that your maths tutor would be happy with you however.

Lol! Perhaps not happy ? perhaps delighted!!! I?m sure a few tutors would fit the description of ?Quietly Enduring Discoveries? ?

Lovely grand Trine going on today Mars and Neptune conj at 17 Aqu, Moon at 17 -20 Gemini and Jupiter at 12 Libra...

Indeed ... and what are words when they come from the collective wisdom and generosity of kind hearted souls and shared amongst friends ?

In appreciation,
TS.