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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Are celebrities a form of malignant narcissist?

 
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 617

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:11 pm    Post subject: Are celebrities a form of malignant narcissist? Reply with quote

I have noticed a particular pattern in charts of those who harm other people, those that are referred to as narcissists and psychopaths, who invade other people's space deliberately to enjoy harm or exploit. There are a few variations in charts that do this, but they are all patterns that create duality for the personal planets, particularly the Sun, Venus and Mars.

Strangely, the other big group of people who show these patterns are celebrities, and these duality-aspected personal planets in their charts seem to also aspect their chart angles, and they have chart angles that aspect the Moons Nodes.

As a philosophical question, not necessarily related to astrology, are celebrities a form of narcissist or psychopath? I was standing in a shop queue today, and a magazine cover was blaring out at me with photographs of celebrities who mean absolutely nothing to my life, and the intention is to make me feel inferior to these celebrities and buy the magazine. Wtf do these celebrities have to do with the price of fish, or ordinary people struggling with real things? So I wonder if celebrities are a more dangerous form of malignant narcissist that operate on a different level, or if the way they channel these energies is more positive? Narcissists have been defined as having a completely fake self, and what better way can you describe these manufactured celebrities? The important point is that neither are harmless. In times past, how would these people have manifested those energies? Celebrities are a historically recent phenomenon.

Astrologically, there may be differences between the charts of malignant narcissists who do classic harm to others, such as murderers, and celebrities who just make a lot of money by getting you to buy them instead of your own life, maybe in that those duality aspected Venuses are otherwise aligned with chart angles which are aligned with Moons Nodes.
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Mark
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Fleur,

She may not be in the 'dangerous' category but one media celebrity that comes to mind is Kim Kardashian. Kardashian gained fame through the TV reality show based on her family entitled 'Keeping Up with the Kardashians" which first aired on TV in 2007. She has worked hard to stay in the news ever since. In fact she seems totally obsessed about remaining in the public eye and promoting herelf at any cost. For example, Kardashian seems to have effectively staged an elaborate wedding to basketball player Kris Humprhries in 2011 as a publicity stunt. If Kardashian is not a narcissist she certainly could be mistaken for one! She clearly craves public attention.

Looking at her chart we find a prominent Venus (10th house by Equal/Whole sign) + MC ruler which is oriental to the Sun so more forceful in expression. But she clearly has deep insecurities with Venus out of sect and in its sign of fall in Virgo. Its squaring Neptune in the first house reflecting the fantasy like image she projects to the world.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kardashian,_Kim

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2707
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi fleur,

it is a philosophical question.. i am curious why you didn't post it in the philosophy section..

do you think you can see the sex of a person in a chart? personally, i don't think you can... and, i think it is very difficult to see neurosis, or psychopathy in a chart as well, or maybe only after the fact.. but that's me and perhaps others think astrology can be or has the answer for everything in life..

regarding the issue of celebrities - it seems to be a diversion or distraction.. life is full of them and it is one more.. maybe some feel more connected to life thru following hollywood, royalty or whatever.. for many people it matters not!

as for kim k using this as an example.. i note the ascendant ruler on an angle in the chart which is often a sign of greater recognition.. i think of planets on angles as likely to present more visibility to the person on a worldly level... i am not sure about the idea of nodes on the angles doing this.. i don't know... regardless - it is an interesting topic using specific examples.. i mostly think neptune as having something to do with all this.. mostly escapism packaged a bunch of different ways, or neptunian type expressions - how i see it..

merry christmas to the folks at skyscript!
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Eric L



Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 35
Location: New York

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a social worker by education with an emphasis in psychology I am very, very reluctant to casually use diagnostic terms. That being said, the Sun, Venus and Mars are precisely the planets I'd expect for a bona fide narcissist. Not too sure about the Nodes, I still don't feel like I have a strong sense of their meaning.

As for celebrities...they're a mixed bag, aren't they? There's the artist celebrities, who vary from the very self-absorbed to the down-to-earth type who care more about their art than the attention (God bless the latter!) Athlete celebrities probably fit into that category too, but since I don't follow sports I couldn't begin to guess. But then you have the people who are famous for being famous or being on reality TV. I don't pay attention to such stuff (I thought at first that the Kardashians were a Star Trek spinoff), but I live with somebody who watches "The Real Housewives" series and all of that and without passing judgment on each individual...I can say that if I were a narcissist that would be the best vehicle for me imaginable!

Might I throw out that with Kardashian's chart, you've got a Jupiter ruling the Ascendant and Moon that's essentially debilitated but quite potent by accidental dignities (smack on the MC, in the best solar phase, and of the ruling sect)? Considering her net worth, it's certainly providing her materially with all Jovian things even if I'm not sure it's psychologically working as Jupiter ought to.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 617

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't been specifically thinking of Kim Kardashian, and I have tried to avoid information about them as much as possible, have never seen that television program, but you just can't avoid being bombarded by them. I held my nose and had a look at some of their charts on astro data bank. I need to look at Kim's chart more, it doesn't, oddly, initially seem to clearly demonstrate the kind of thing I was saying, though it may do on further study. However, her mother Kris's chart definitely does http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jenner,_Kris Her Moons Nodes are square to her Ascendant (though the birth time may not be accurate), and her Venus at 29.5 degrees Scorpio, antiscion 0.5 degrees Aquarius, aspects all of Jupiter, Saturn, Chiron and Uranus. And squares Pluto. That is one powerful Venus, and it has recently been transited by IsisTranspluto in Leo and Neptune in Aquarius, bringing her (Venus) into the limelight.

I had a further look at Kim's chart, and it is her Mars, not her Venus, which has heavy dualistic aspects, including the Moons Nodes, Midheaven axis, Moon, Jupiter and Phaethon (13 degrees Leo, antiscion 17 degrees Taurus).

The different forms of duality probably have different qualities.

I take the point that this might not just be a phenomenon of people with no real talent who are famous only for being famous, and bombarded at us by the media, getting weaker people to buy their product and feel inferior to these "goddesses". (It is often but not always women, and seems to be associated more with Venus than Mars or the Sun). I have seen similar patterns in big names from the 1960's who we associate with a fair amount of talent, at least for a time. Sometimes I have wondered if these potentially nasty, dualistic Venuses that could be toxic and narcissistic, are maybe sometimes transformed into something else entirely, though not all people we think of as creative geniuses were necessarily nice.

I find it strange, and have seen it many times in chart. I only use very tight orbs, mostly one degree or less, maybe two degrees for a conjunction, square or opposition, and I don't use trines for this. I do use antiscia.

I might add that Mars, more than Venus, is typical in musicians' charts, aspecting Neptune, plus other non-dualistic planets, but sometimes dualistic planets. The more genuine the person and the talent, the more likely the planets are to be non-dualistic - maybe.

I don't have any real answers to this, it is just patterns I see over and over again. Maybe some people genuinely enjoy pointless celebrities, but we aren't given the choice to avoid them and imo they can be toxic. They sell themselves, often their fake selves, by denying the reality of ordinary people.

I found it strange that celebrities as a group share similar chart patterns to those who are directly harmful to others, one way or another. Not all narcissists kill, but you do see these patterns in murderer's charts, particularly involving Venus, but sometimes Mars. The difference between the two groups seems possibly to be that they operate on different levels, reflected by the strong chart angles in celebrities' charts, especially the Moons Nodes aspecting the chart angles (under one degree, hard aspects only, includes antiscia). These are just my observations, and the other ways of seeing charts you mention are probably also illuminating.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 617

Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was looking at some celebrities' charts, which I find difficult because I feel as though I am wasting my time looking at things without souls, these aren't real people at least what we see.

What struck me recently was, can we really know anything about their biographies from what is made public on sites like Wikipedia? Maybe another reason I tend to see looking at celebrity charts as a waste of time. They could have a severe transit or progression and their publicist would keep it hidden. We saw from Prince (who I am not putting in this totally pointless celebrity category) that a celebrity can be up to their eyeballs in drugs and problems and you never know, and they can have massive personal relationship dysfunctions. Also as Mark pointed out regarding Kim Kardashian, she had marriages just for publicity.
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geo



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 154
Location: Athens, Greece

Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Fleur

I 'd rather see Narcissism as a permanent feature of our neurotic post-modern reality, thus definetly not restricted to celebrities.
Being a bourgeois symptom, I'd link it to Venus and Libra, not to dual signs at all (dual signs are common signs, and their "damage" to others would be their instability).

*it's funny I bumped into this post: It's been a while I haven't visited the forum and entering today all I had into my mind was some astrological clue on my narcissist mother (Sun conj Merc Libra - Venus+Mars+Moon Leo) whose pathological narcissism (see insecurity) provoked much damage to her family.
"Accidental malefic" is the word that comes into my mind, since it is not the classical Mars-ian energy, people who act "attacking" on others, it's a different kind of manoeuvr-ing, the need to have an audience to (c)harm at any cost.

Regards,

Georgia
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 617

Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geo wrote:
Hi Fleur

I 'd rather see Narcissism as a permanent feature of our neurotic post-modern reality, thus definetly not restricted to celebrities.
Being a bourgeois symptom, I'd link it to Venus and Libra, not to dual signs at all (dual signs are common signs, and their "damage" to others would be their instability).

*it's funny I bumped into this post: It's been a while I haven't visited the forum and entering today all I had into my mind was some astrological clue on my narcissist mother (Sun conj Merc Libra - Venus+Mars+Moon Leo) whose pathological narcissism (see insecurity) provoked much damage to her family.
"Accidental malefic" is the word that comes into my mind, since it is not the classical Mars-ian energy, people who act "attacking" on others, it's a different kind of manoeuvr-ing, the need to have an audience to (c)harm at any cost.

Regards,

Georgia


Sorry my term "dualistic aspect patterns" is my own term for describing certain aspect patterns, I wasn't aware that duel signs was a term used in traditional astrology, and I didn't mean that at all.

Venus is usually the culprit in these cases, and when I say it is involved in dualistic aspects, I need to explain in great depth what I mean by that, as it pertains to my own research, and is not part of traditional astrology or anything anyone else has described. I have a few terms I use for phenomena I have found, that I use for myself as best descriptors of what I think is going on.

Recently I was reading a thread about this subject on the Noel Tyl forum http://noeltyl.com/discussion/index.php?PHPSESSID=2fa2b4c5f097e4fff3d7e1ba91d5fcf8&topic=7717.0
There is a post by a poster called All Fire that made me construct the chart he is talking about, and I found that this expanded things I had been studying about psychopathy. I wanted to post on this thread to make my points in response to All Fire, but my old login for this forum no longer seems to work, I registered years ago and never posted on this forum, and when I tried to register with another name and email address I was never contacted by the admin. Ideally I would have liked to discuss this in a private message with All Fire, as I did a lot of work on it but am unsure why he chose to describe the astrological placements in such detail but omit the date of birth, which was very easily reconstructed. I don't know the exact time and place of birth, but this chart below satisfies all his criteria. If the moderator here thinks I have broken any rules of confidentiality by posting the chart, then please take it down. Astrodienst charts will only anonymise the name, not the date of birth. If anyone knows how I can anonymise the date of birth I would appreciate if they would tell me.

All Fire had described his psychopath's chart "The psychopath in my case was a double Pisces with Aries rising. His 12th house Moon (exactly conjunct Mercury in Pisces) was exactly opposite Saturn in Virgo and exactly inconjunct Pluto in Leo and Neptune in Libra (forming a yod). Uranus was at zero Cancer. He had Venus in Aquarius closely opposite Pluto. My client, his victim, has Venus closely conjunct Pluto in Leo."




What struck me when I pieced together this chart is that I used to know somebody born with a very similar chart, born a day earlier who was an absolutely lovely person, the nicest person you could ever meet, and not just superficially as I was in a very vulnerable position when I knew her and she could easily have taken advantage of my situation to get something I had that I knew she very much wanted, but instead she was an angel. So All Fire's psychopath was so because of the position of his Moon, which All Fire also believes. The Moon is one of my dualistic aspect indicators. In this chart the Moon is aspecting his Mercury. The key to how this person is different is in that aspect pattern. I have since noticed that Mercury is often implicated in some of the worst psychopathy, even more than Venus.

I use this chart's Mercury to part illustrate what I am saying, and Venus in that kind of aspect, or others, would operate in the same way. You say your narcissist has Venus+Mars+Moon, and I wonder if this is a very tightly orbed conjunction?

I found this chart fascinating, as it shows how one small difference in the position of the Moon can change a chart from the most beautiful Pisces to something harmful.

Please don't read too much into this, it is just my observations and I have a lot of ways I look at charts that need a lot of explanation and aren't traditional astrology or anything anybody else uses. I don't use trines etc for this, only aspects under 1 degree, or slightly more and I have seen up to 2 degrees obviously work. It would all need me to explain it carefully.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2707
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi fleur,

are we talking non famous psychopaths instead of famous narcissist's now? lol

regarding the chart you have constructed via all fires data - is a chart that doesn't look positive in regards to relationships with others.. they are going to have to work on it.. here is (some of) the astro to why i say this - mars ruler of the ascendant in libra.. mars is also on the south node which makes it more challenging.. meanwhile venus - ruler of the 7th is in aquarius in opp to pluto - all potential signals that this person will have difficulty in relationships! a rising venus also adds to this.. that is a matutine as opposed to vespertine venus..

of course the position of the moon - what it is aspecting and etc. etc. is very important.. in this chart example the moon is almost exact to the degree and minute opposite saturn, although the moon conjunct mercury is quicker to see! so much hinges on everything else in a chart read.. thanks for sharing the speculative chart of all fires 'psychopath' as they refer to them.. i see that as a very subjective label to put on someone..
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 617

Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi fleur,

are we talking non famous psychopaths instead of famous narcissist's now? lol

regarding the chart you have constructed via all fires data - is a chart that doesn't look positive in regards to relationships with others.. they are going to have to work on it.. here is (some of) the astro to why i say this - mars ruler of the ascendant in libra.. mars is also on the south node which makes it more challenging.. meanwhile venus - ruler of the 7th is in aquarius in opp to pluto - all potential signals that this person will have difficulty in relationships! a rising venus also adds to this.. that is a matutine as opposed to vespertine venus..

of course the position of the moon - what it is aspecting and etc. etc. is very important.. in this chart example the moon is almost exact to the degree and minute opposite saturn, although the moon conjunct mercury is quicker to see! so much hinges on everything else in a chart read.. thanks for sharing the speculative chart of all fires 'psychopath' as they refer to them.. i see that as a very subjective label to put on someone..


I was answering Geo's question, trying to throw some light on the Moon-Mars-Venus in Leo of the narcissist in her life, and what they all have in common, celebrity, non-celebrity, soul-harming or serial killer.

And I did say that I have studied both celebrity and non-celebrity narcissist/psychopath. I would prefer to stick to one term, psychopath, for all of them, but people are using different terms for the same thing. I agree with All Fire that maybe evil would be a better term.

Did you read All Fire's post? He is a litigator who worked on a civil case against a world class psychopath (37 out of a possible 40 on Hare's checklist) and that chart was of somebody who harmed his client. From what he says, he wasn't using the term psychopath lightly.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 617

Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
I was looking at some celebrities' charts, which I find difficult because I feel as though I am wasting my time looking at things without souls, these aren't real people at least what we see.

What struck me recently was, can we really know anything about their biographies from what is made public on sites like Wikipedia? Maybe another reason I tend to see looking at celebrity charts as a waste of time. They could have a severe transit or progression and their publicist would keep it hidden. We saw from Prince (who I am not putting in this totally pointless celebrity category) that a celebrity can be up to their eyeballs in drugs and problems and you never know, and they can have massive personal relationship dysfunctions. Also as Mark pointed out regarding Kim Kardashian, she had marriages just for publicity.


This story that recently hit the news perfectly illustrates this issue http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/05/johnny-depp-amber-heard-divorce-domestic-violence-blackmail

She is very beautiful and financially successful but some of the transits to her chart probably caused these kind of things in her personal life, whereas all we were seeing before was her beauty, success, and happy marriage with no explanation for what looked like difficult transits.

His daughter Lily Rose said "My dad is the sweetest most loving person I know, he’s been nothing but a wonderful father to my little brother and I". That grammar doesn't sound right to me, but I would never use that "and I" construction even when it is used in the right way, and prefer to be incorrect even when it is supposed to be used. So much for celebrities who can buy the best education, and the best handlers to correct their grammar.
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