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transits, solar return...
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Wolfie



Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Posts: 15

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:16 pm    Post subject: transits, solar return... Reply with quote

Hi, I'm trying to learn medieval astrology. Here's a really basic (dumb!) question re calculating transits and solar returns: Do you calculate them based on where you live currently rather than where you lived at birth? Thanks in advance.
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Eric L



Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 36
Location: New York

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Far from a dumb question, it's quite a matter of debate. As far as I know the general medieval practice is to use the birthplace; one dissenter I know was Jean-Baptiste Morin, whose astrological practices were based on his metaphysical and natural philosophy. If I might make a suggestion, a good place to start on the subject is the audio lecture by Ben Dykes (who does not advocate relocation by the way); his instructions are very clear and illustrated by multiple examples.
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Wolfie,

Since this is basically a "either or" question, look at a few years where you had major events and cast two Solar Returns...

Both likely give information, but one method will (disclaimer: likely Wink ) stand out as THE method.

I did this a long time ago with the 24+ events from my life and the residence method gave better results.

I haven't looked back... Wink
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi wolfie,

paying attention to detail is an important requirement when doing anything... your question specifically states you are 'trying to learn medieval astrology.' based on your particular quest, i would skip using any relocated data..
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I'd be interested to see any reference to a medieval work stating explicitly that the revolution should be cast for the place of birth. I can't recall seeing the topic discussed at all prior to the (late) Renaissance.
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the revolution cast for the location that one is spending the most time at is more telling generally. I have a personal account back from 1982 when I happened to be residing in Denver, CO during my college years. As most know, if one lives one's entire life at the birth place, your natal angles return every 33 years. It isn't possible otherwise. But I had my natal angles return in Denver when I was 21 and Jupiter and Mars were transiting my ascendant at 2 Scorpio to the degree (there is no place else on earth where this could have happened so exactly - if you follow the oblique horizon one gets the ascendant but not the MC; vice versa if one follows the longitude (meridian), one gets the MC but not the ascendant). It also happened to be my 10th house profection year. It was the most important year of my life.

Those who want to change an otherwise difficult revolution by going somewhere for about a day and returning are likely to be disappointed. To the extent that fate is pressurized by material causes, one had better be ready to mount an equal and opposite pressure to forestall what might be built up as inevitable. Going someplace for a few hours won't generally cut it.
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Actually, I'd be interested to see any reference to a medieval work stating explicitly that the revolution should be cast for the place of birth. I can't recall seeing the topic discussed at all prior to the (late) Renaissance.


If YOU haven't found a reference, I would like to see it too.

There is a dearth of focused study on the topic of relocation. Not only is there disagreement about relocating itself, but how long must residence be in the relocated position? The default opinion seems to be that natal location reigns. In the absence of evidence this is an opinion. The belief that flying across the planet for 24 hours on your birthday will alter anything, other than your sleep cycles, is an opinion. Nothing wrong with that as long as it's acknowledged.
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Lazarus



Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 88

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My own continued approach to such matters is to see which techniques are giving hits/repetition (convergence). If every technique was shouting Mars and then you did multiple solar returns, the one that emphasized Mars the most might be the "correct" one, although even then it is probably wiser to say that perhaps the different return charts tell different stories about the year. That is to say each one may emphasized different yet equally important factors. In practice it is probably best to always be humble, keep an open mind, and go with whatever is making sense at that particular moment for that particular chart. As astrologers we fall into the danger of overthinking everything and being torn by slightly different takes on a single technique etc. One example is the 4th/10th father/mother debate. Let the chart speak for itself. In a friend's chart I find that the 4th quite clearly indicated the native's mother because Venus was in Taurus there in the 4th house/sign and disposited the lot of the mother in Libra. Mars was square Venus and during the Mars/Venus firdaria and profected Asc at the 8th sign from the 4th, her mother died of cancer. My point is that we need be careful about assuming a one size fits all.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Dear James
In the two treatises on anniversary revolution by Ibn Ezra that I have published, no geographical location is specified. However, ​Ibn Ezra repeatedly says than many calculations should be done using the table of ascensions for the country where the native was born. See, for example, in my last volume, p. 185, 189, 199, etc.
Best regards,
Shlomo Sela"
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
Actually, I'd be interested to see any reference to a medieval work stating explicitly that the revolution should be cast for the place of birth. I can't recall seeing the topic discussed at all prior to the (late) Renaissance.


I suspect behind this dearth of discussion is the basic fact that for the vast majority of people in the medieval period social mobility was much more limited. This started to change in the early modern period and today has become a significant social reality. So the issue probably wasn't prevalent enough to require a critical rethinking of technique. What a contrast to today where people frequently relocate across not just countries but continents.

One of the social changes that instigated such a discussion was the age of exploration outside Europe in the later 15th century and particularly the settllement of the Americas that followed.

Hence we also see the first debate in the early modern period (eg Cardano, Morin etc) on the technical implications of southern hemisphere nativities in the 17th century.

Mark
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
I suspect behind this dearth of discussion is the basic fact that for the vast majority of people in the medieval period social mobility was much more limited.

Yes, that's what I've always thought as well.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
Actually, I'd be interested to see any reference to a medieval work stating explicitly that the revolution should be cast for the place of birth. I can't recall seeing the topic discussed at all prior to the (late) Renaissance.


I suspect behind this dearth of discussion is the basic fact that for the vast majority of people in the medieval period social mobility was much more limited. This started to change in the early modern period and today has become a significant social reality. So the issue probably wasn't prevalent enough to require a critical rethinking of technique. What a contrast to today where people frequently relocate across not just countries but continents.

One of the social changes that instigated such a discussion was the age of exploration outside Europe in the later 15th century and particularly the settllement of the Americas that followed.

Hence we also see the first debate in the early modern period (eg Cardano, Morin etc) on the technical implications of southern hemisphere nativities in the 17th century.

Mark


... and most of that mobility was out of distress.
The Pilgrim fathers or their likes, or Australian settlers were all in distress of some kind.

The ones who would move with social enhancement were:

Horoscopes of females who married into wealth family of a distant land.
All those Queens that King Edward married and then chopped them off or horoscopes of Kings who lost and regained their Kingdoms e.g.
: Charles II or Charles De Gaulle,Shah Reza Pahlavi would be helpful.

PD
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
.. and most of that mobility was out of distress.
The Pilgrim fathers or their likes, or Australian settlers were all in distress of some kind.


To be honest that is a rather anglophile view. British settlement of Australia was not until 1788 and by that time astrology everywhere in Europe was in decline. English setllement of North America also came relatively late (1607) and the initial colony settlement at Jamestown, Virginia was not founded by religious exiles. I was actually thinking more of the cultural impact in Europe of Spanish and Portugese settlement that came long before English colonial ventures in the Americas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_colonization_of_the_Americas

However, as Morin was the first astrologer we know of to suggest relocated returns the impact of French settlement in North America may have been his particular inspiration. In particular the French settlement in places like Quebec from 1608.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonization_of_the_Americas

Pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
The ones who would move with social enhancement were:

Horoscopes of females who married into wealth family of a distant land.
All those Queens that King Edward married and then chopped them off or horoscopes of Kings who lost and regained their Kingdoms e.g.
: Charles II or Charles De Gaulle,Shah Reza Pahlavi would be helpful.


You have a fair point that the marriage of medieval Queens from other kingdoms would be a good test if such returns were ever relocated. It would be extremely interesting if we could unearth delineations of such a return chart.

Still, I dont think we can really expect the tradition to answer all our questions and this topic is a good example. The best practical example I can think of to test out natal location vs relocated charts are those of people who have moved from say the southern hemisphere to Europe or North America or those who have moved from one end to the other of immense countries like the USA or Canada. Similarly, those who have relocated from one end of Europe to the other. The angles and houses are going to shift dramatically in such examples.

Mark
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for testing for relocation or not, I suppose it all depends on whether you recast a new chart (as Abu Ma'shar did,and seems to be the first who did), or treat the revolution positions as transits to the nativity as the earlier Persians did. The angles of the East of the Year (as Dykes translates it) still have some significance, but I would always pay more attention to the natal angles and the houses derived from the natal ascending sign when talking about where and what each configuration is doing. As far as I understand it, the revolution is an intensification or a remission of certain natal configurations, so the nativity is king. From my experience, the houses counted from the sign of the profected ASC are far more telling than those counted from the East of the Year anyway.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
As for testing for relocation or not, I suppose it all depends on whether you recast a new chart (as Abu Ma'shar did,and seems to be the first who did), or treat the revolution positions as transits to the nativity as the earlier Persians did.

That, and also whether you use a sidereal year (like Māshāʾallāh's Book of Aristotle does) or a tropical one. But although I know that Ben Dykes gives it as his opinon that the Persians prior to Abū Maʿshar didn't cast full-scale revolution charts, I'm not entirely convinced that that's true. We know they did calculate the actual ascendant for the moment of the revolution, and it seems a bit counter-intuitive to suppose that they did not then go on to consider the planets at the time in relation to that. Even if they didn't calculate any other angles or cusps, that would still be a (whole-sign) figure of the revolution.
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