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Lot of Marriage-Paulus or Valens?
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:17 am    Post subject: Lot of Marriage-Paulus or Valens? Reply with quote

I am very cautiously starting to incorporate more lots into my chart work.
Up until recently I restricted myself to just the Lot of Fortune and Spirit.

Lately though I have been exploring the lot of children and accusation in charts with interesting results.

However, I have always, found the variety of approaches to the lot of Marriage rather confusing with the competing formulas offered.

In short:

Lots of Marriage:

Lot of Marriage, Men [Paulus - Day or Night] Lot = Ascendant + Venus - Saturn

Lot of Marriage, Women [Paulus - Day or Night] Lot = Ascendant + Saturn - Venus

Lot of Marriage, Men [Valens - Day or Night] Lot = Ascendant + Venus - Sun

Lot of Marriage, Women [Valens - Day or Night] Lot = Ascendant + Mars - Moon

Lot of Marriage, General/Valens [Day] Lot = Ascendant + Venus - Jupiter

Lot of Marriage, General /Valens [Night] Lot = Ascendant + Jupiter - Venus

I gather the Saturn based Paulus formula was the one largely adopted by Perso-Arabic astrologers like Al-Biruni

From Robert Hand's piece on the lots:

Quote:
In Al-Biruni, an Arab era astrologer, the two lots attributed to Hermes are simply referred to as lots of marriage. But the other two lots, the one for men and the one for women, are given additional designations. The lot for the marriage of men using the Venus - Sun arc is called "Trickery and Deception of Men toward Women," and "Intercourse of Men." The lot for women that uses the Mars - Moon arc is called "Misconduct of Women," "Trickery and Deceit of Men by Women," "Intercourse of Women, " and "Unchastity of Women." Disregarding for a moment the obvious sexism in these designations, it is quite clear that the marital lots of Valens are not as specifically connected to marriage, but are more connected to sexual relationships in general. But the Hermetic lots, both of which contain Saturn, seem to have more of a connection specifically to legally sanctioned marriage. At this very early stage in my research this principle seems to be holding up, that the Hermetic lots relate to legal marriage, and the lots of Valens relate to male-female sexual relationships in general.

This leaves the general lot of marriage given by Valens that uses the arc from Jupiter to Venus and vice versa. It have little experience with this one thus far, but it too would seem to be connected to general relations between the sexes rather than specifically legal marriage. However, since Jupiter has a strong connection with the law, we cannot rule out this lot also as referring to legal marriage.

Its been suggested the last two general lots given by Valens are not for marriage but general relationships between men and women.


http://www.astro.com/info/in_fortune_e.htm

Despite the Perso-Arabic tendency to favour the Paulus/Saturn formula as the standard way to calculate the lot of marriage I still wonder about the formulas for men and women given by Valens. Which have people found more effective? Do people agree the Saturn formula of Paulus better reflects contractual legalised partnerships? Are Valens lots better at detecting the quality of the relationships involved? Finally, do Valens lots involving Venus and Jupiter tell us more about the sex lives of individuals than marriage?

Has anyone any experience they can share working with these lots?

Mark
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Konrad



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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

I looked into this a couple of years ago and I concluded that the Paulus lot (which is actually found in Dorotheus too) is to be used for marriage and relationships generally, and the Valens gender-specific lot for sexual activity. It was later pointed out to me that al-Biruni lists this lot in regard to sexual activity too.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Konrad,

I hadn't appreciated the Saturn/Venus formula went back to Dorotheus of Sidon. Thanks for comments on the Valens gender specific lots. I did find one post by you briefly picking this topic up. Is this what you were referring to?

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7333&sid=b5f89e8d9ef8448b3400b14afcd7d18a

So I guess that leaves Valens general formula based on night and day with Jupiter-Venus. Robert Hand admitted he hadn't really explored this formula when he wrote his piece about 20 years ago. I dont know if there has been any work on this formula since then by any hellenistic astrologers.

Mark
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Konrad



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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome, Mark.

Yes, this would have been around the time I was looking into this. I did quite an extensive study into the charts of homosexual males and also males who preyed upon young boys, but I lost it when my hard drive failed.
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Eric L



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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to add a little more confusion to this mix, Dorotheus (alone, as far as I can tell) reverses the Saturn-Venus marriage lots by night, a practice which Ben Dykes advocates in his audio lecture on lots. I've actually been working on a table of lots from all sources up to Bonatti so that the mess can be more easily visualized and understood - it's a heck of a task. One word of warning - al-Biruni seems to be drawing on Abu Ma'shar's Greater Introduction, but there appear to be a lot of errors when compared with other authors drawing on the same work. Hopefully a full translation of the Introduction from the Arabic original will help clear up some of the questions that have arisen.
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astrojin



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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark and Konrad and Eric,

When I cover Lots in my lessons, I usually will say that there are lots of lots (especially in the medieval astrology) but there are LOTS of lots of marriage even from earlier times!

As usual, we would love to find the rational reasonings behind the formulae given by the Greeks when it comes to lots (or any discipline for that matter) knowing how the Greeks love rationale in their pursuits of real knowledge…

PAULUS:
Lot of Marriage, Men [Paulus - Day or Night] Lot = Ascendant + Venus - Saturn
Lot of Marriage, Women [Paulus - Day or Night] Lot = Ascendant + Saturn - Venus

It is interesting that Paulus clearly states that these lots should not be reversed for nocturnal charts. Usually a lot is characterized by the ascendant and two planets of different sect (or sometimes gender – Mars is nocturnal but masculine). If sect is of importance, reversal seems to be the norm and if gender is of importance, then reversal is usually not made – as is the case above. Venus is nocturnal (and feminine) and Saturn is diurnal (and masculine). However, gender is more important in the above formulae, hence, no reversal is made for sect but reversal is made for gender i.e. the lot of marriage of women is the reverse of that of men and each lot is not reversed for different sects.

Now we come to: “Why Saturn?”
At one glance, modern astrologers might find this strange that marriage is connected to Saturn. However, in ancient times, marriage is just that…contractual binding usually made to sustain/increase one’s wealth and reputation or to increase one’s political standing, or simply to create a new family/lineage. These tying of knots, binding, creating and sustaining lineage, etc. is very much Satunian in nature. That is why Saturn appears in Paulus’ Lot of Marriage. In fact, Saturn appears in Lot of brothers and father in Paulus scheme simply because Saturn is the general significator of family bond/lineage.

Lot of brothers, [Paulus - Day or Night] Lot = Ascendant + Jupiter - Saturn
Lot of children, [Paulus - Day or Night] Lot = Ascendant + Saturn - Jupiter
Again Paulus does not reverse these lots (for nocturnal charts)!

BUT then you will argue that the Lot of Mother does not have Saturn:
Lot of mother, Lot = Ascendant + Moon - Venus (reverse for nocturnal chart)

In fact the above formula is agreed upon by Valens, Dorotheus, Firmicus, Paulus, Olympiodorus, Abu Ma’shar, Albiruni and Bonatti!
So, why even Paulus does not use Saturn (which is the general significator of family bond/lineage) in his lot of mother? Because mother is not considered a relation that connects one to the family lineage. The ancients believe that mothers are receptacles of children that they bring to the world but family names and lineage are maintained by the fathers (and sons and brothers…).

Now we come to: “Why Venus?”
Well, marriage and Venus? In Hellenistic astrology, Venus is the sign of “unification”. Hence, Saturn and Venus makes the unification through family bonding/ties or unification of two lineages but maintained by Saturn who is the masculine conter-part…). AND a coincidence that both Saturn and Venus are “rulers” of the fourth house in the thema mundi and fourth house does signify family. The fourth house of the thema mundi is Libra whose domicile ruler is Venus and exalted ruler is Saturn. Saturn is also the ruler of the seventh house in the thema mundi!!!

So, yes, Paulus lots of marriage do indicate “legal marriage” and the one largely adopted by Perso-Arabic astrologers like Al-Biruni…


Valens – Lot of Marriage
Lot of Marriage, Men [Valens - Day or Night] Lot = Ascendant + Venus - Sun

Lot of Marriage, Women [Valens - Day or Night] Lot = Ascendant + Mars - Moon

Again we see that these lots are not reversed for nocturnal charts!

These lots indicate more (as Hand pointed out): …it is quite clear that the marital lots of Valens are not as specifically connected to marriage, but are more connected to sexual relationships in general…

In short, “falling in love (actually more like falling for sex!)”. Remember that in Platonic philosophy, the soul while circuiting the heavens “fell to the earth and born because they were distracted by desire (to have sex)” Even in modern terms “falling in love” is actually a reflection of the Platonic “falling to the earth due to desire/sex”. ACTUALLY, it is because of sex (not love) that one’s soul “fall” and it is love (esp. love in philosophy) that will raise the soul back to the heavens (after all philosophy means love for wisdom!)

Hence, the above Valens’ Lots are for “falling for sex”. What is the light (akin to soul) for men? It is the sun. What is the light (akin to soul) for women? It is the Moon. So, for lots of “falling for sex” start with Sun (for men) and Moon (for women). Then, you move these planets (Sun or Moon) to the place where they “FALL”. The Sun will have to move to Libra (the sign of its Fall). Therefore, the Sun is moved to Venus (domicile ruler of Libra). Similarly, the Moon will have to move to Scorpio (the sign of its Fall). Therefore, the Moon is moved to Mars (domicile ruler of Scorpio).

So, yes, Valens lots of marriage do indicate “sexual relations" for they make the lights fall...for sex!

Valens – Lot of Marriage [General]
Lot of Marriage, General/Valens [Day] Lot = Ascendant + Venus - Jupiter

Lot of Marriage, General /Valens [Night] Lot = Ascendant + Jupiter – Venus

Now we have a marriage Lot that is reversed for different sect (because we do not make distinction of gender!!!).

“Happiness of marriage” seems appropriate for both benefics (of both sects) are involved. AND it seems logical to start with Jupiter (diurnal sect) for diurnal chart and Venus (nocturnal sect) for nocturnal chart.


Last edited by astrojin on Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
You're welcome, Mark.

Yes, this would have been around the time I was looking into this. I did quite an extensive study into the charts of homosexual males and also males who preyed upon young boys, but I lost it when my hard drive failed.


I was coming to the conclusion that Asc/Ven/sat lot in male horoscope had to do with marrying someone quite young.
(Charlie Chaplin, Rupert Murdoch, Hugh Hefner)
I wonder if this is a possibility. In olden times many of the King's wives and those in Harem were quite young.

PD
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin wrote:
Now we come to: “Why Saturn?”
At one glance, modern astrologers might find this strange that marriage is connected to Saturn. However, in ancient times, marriage is just that…contractual binding usually made to sustain/increase one’s wealth and reputation or to increase one’s political standing, or simply to create a new family/lineage.


Yes I agree. Were you in any of Schmidt's classes? He said the same thing a bit differently; the word "anangke" (which is the kind of fate associated with Saturn) refers to the "ties that bind" as he put it which you correctly pointed out belongs to the 4th house of the Thema Mundi because of the participation (from Antiochus) of the stars of Kronos and Aphrodite in the role of forming familial associations...
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thanks to Eric and astrojin for their input here.

astrojin wrote:
Quote:
Well, marriage and Venus? In Hellenistic astrology, Venus is the sign of “unification”. Hence, Saturn and Venus makes the unification through family bonding/ties or unification of two lineages but maintained by Saturn who is the masculine counter-part…). AND a coincidence that both Saturn and Venus are “rulers” of the fourth house in the thema mundi and fourth house does signify family. The fourth house of the thema mundi is Libra whose domicile ruler is Venus and exalted ruler is Saturn. Saturn is also the ruler of the seventh house in the thema mundi!!!


Thanks astrojin! I had omitted to consider how these planets link up in the Thema Mundi compared to their lot associations. Good insight.

astrojin wrote:
Quote:
It is interesting that Paulus clearly states that these lots should not be reversed for nocturnal charts.


Yes, you make a very good case for this. But as Eric has pointed out already our most ancient source, Dorotheus of Sidon seems to suggest reversing this lot formula at night. I am interested to learn more on Benjamin Dykes argument for following Dorotheus on this.

astrojin wrote:
Quote:
“Happiness of marriage” seems appropriate for both benefics (of both sects) are involved. AND it seems logical to start with Jupiter (diurnal sect) for diurnal chart and Venus (nocturnal sect) for nocturnal chart.


Indeed. Although I dont see why we need to restrict the meaning of this lot to just marriage. With the both benefics involved it could surely have application in a wider context? I have been exploring this as a general 'lot of happiness' in regards what areas of life (by WSH placement) gives the native pleasure and happiness. I have seen evidence of this in several charts I have examined where it seems to relate to areas outside marriage. Although my research is still at a very early stage.

astrojin wrote:
Quote:
At one glance, modern astrologers might find this strange that marriage is connected to Saturn. However, in ancient times, marriage is just that…contractual binding usually made to sustain/increase one’s wealth and reputation or to increase one’s political standing, or simply to create a new family/lineage. These tying of knots, binding, creating and sustaining lineage, etc. is very much Satunian in nature. That is why Saturn appears in Paulus’ Lot of Marriage. In fact, Saturn appears in Lot of brothers and father in Paulus scheme simply because Saturn is the general significator of family bond/lineage.


Two issues that I will just float for consideration on how me might use the lot of marriage in astrology today.

Firstly, while there is no denying the dynastic and social reasons for marriage in the ancient world this is seldom the justification for marriage today where the romantic ideal now predominates. In an increasingly less patriarchal world does Saturn really still make sense in a lot of marriage? Or would most of us still stick with the argument that the formalisation of relationships and the legal rights it confers justifies retaining a Saturnian association?

Secondly, many countries have now legalised Gay and Lesbian marriage. How might we respond to this increasing social phenomenon astrologically? Does a gender based 'lot of marriage' still make sense?

Mark
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astrojin



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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mark,

I knew you would ask me those questions (as I had asked them myself when I was toying with the Lots)!!!

From Mark:
Quote:
Yes, you make a very good case for this. But as Eric has pointed out already our most ancient source, Dorotheus of Sidon seems to suggest reversing this lot formula at night. I am interested to learn more on Benjamin Dykes argument for following Dorotheus on this.

As for Dorotheus being the most ancient reference, that is debatable especially if the translation comes from the pahlavi text of the Greek. There is also another lot of marriage not involving ascendant in Dorotheus.

Benjamin Dykes would prefer reversing as is evident in his Lot workshop but then the marriage examples given are for day charts with the exception of one, but that one example has the lot almost exactly on the descendant.

I am not saying that non-reversal is the correct approach - just arguing for it more than against it. However, I would be persuaded otherwise...
In practice (my practice that is), I prefer the non-reversal as it seems rationale and born out in my practice. I strongly suggest that others print out both day and night lots for night charts and decide for yourselves - not the best approach but it is the best empirical approach we have...

From Mark:
Quote:
Indeed. Although I dont see why we need to restrict the meaning of this lot to just marriage. With the both benefics involved it could surely have application in a wider context? I have been exploring this as a general 'lot of happiness' in regards what areas of life (by WSH placement) gives the native pleasure and happiness. I have seen evidence of this in several charts I have examined where it seems to relate to areas outside marriage. Although my research is still at a very early stage.

Exactly! Forgot to mention that in my practice, I don't use this lot of marriage for marriage at all. I decided against it when I got contradictory results earlier in my own study. AND I have great scepticism of any method/technique that includes the ambiguous term like "happiness". Will a person be happy if his marriage was satisfying yet cut short or if he has many wives at the same time (he might be happy but don't think the wives are!) or can we say that a marriage is happy if the marriage provides financial security and public status (like in ancient times) but happily fooling around except with the wife...

From Mark:
Quote:
Firstly, while there is no denying the dynastic and social reasons for marriage in the ancient world this is seldom the justification for marriage today where the romantic ideal now predominates. In an increasingly less patriarchal world does Saturn really still make sense in a lot of marriage? Or would most of us still stick with the argument that the formalisation of relationships and the legal rights it confers justifies retaining a Saturnian association?

I would venture that "yes", Saturn-Venus would still be relevant so long as marriage is considered a contractual union between two parties (including gay marriage) that serves to create new familial relationship where each is bound or tied with the other so long as the knot is not being broken. Saturn-Venus lot does not give indications of relationships; that's the job of the other Lot. Saturn-Venus lot seems to indicate contractual/legal marriage regardless of the reasons of the marriage or even who the native marries (there are also people who made contractual marriage to their pets... but this I have no empirical research to argue for/against!).

From Mark:
Quote:
Secondly, many countries have now legalised Gay and Lesbian marriage. How might we respond to this increasing social phenomenon astrologically? Does a gender based 'lot of marriage' still make sense?

As for contractual/legal marriage, Saturn-Venus lot seems to work for both straight and gay marriages (as already mentioned above) as the gender in the lot refers to the native and not to the one he/she marries.

However, when it comes to Valens' Lots (more about relationships - not contractual/legal marriages), things are not so direct, at least not so according to my own study...
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astrojin



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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Zoidsoft,

Quote:
Yes I agree. Were you in any of Schmidt's classes? He said the same thing a bit differently; the word "anangke" (which is the kind of fate associated with Saturn) refers to the "ties that bind" as he put it which you correctly pointed out belongs to the 4th house of the Thema Mundi because of the participation (from Antiochus) of the stars of Kronos and Aphrodite in the role of forming familial associations...

No, I did not attend any of Schmidt's classes though I have some of his translations and did buy some of his recordings...

But yeah, I read somewhere about association of anangke to Saturn (other than skyscript) but I cannot remember where...

The Lot of Necessity (Paulus' version) makes Mercury as the non-luminary planet whereas Saturn is made the non-luminary for Lot of Nemesis... I wonder...

Meanwhile, back to the Thema Mundi, if anangke is associated to the fourth, wouldn't other angles be associated to the other types of fates? I don't see why not. If I were to make my own wacky associations...

Anangke to the fourth as the fourth has Saturn as its Exalted Lord. Hence, Heimarmene should be associated with the tenth (fates from above) and has (logically) Sun as the Exalted lord. Providence would be associated with none other than the first which has (logically) Jupiter as its Exalted Lord. We are left with the seventh house whose Exalted Lord is Mars. Now, which fates could we associate the seventh and Mars with? Well, no doubt we have to give at least one angle to the non-fates i.e. choice! After all did not Virgil say, Fortune favours the bold which roughly means you need to be bold enough (Mars!) in order to be successful and "create" your own destiny/fortune.

Wait a minute...! what about Tuche (Chance). Well the most important indicator of Tuche is Lot of Fortune. In the Thema Mundi (nocturnal chart), Lot of Fortune would be in the 2nd house (Leo) and (if non-reversal is made) Lot of Fortune would be in the 12th house. Now, that's nice. We could associate Tuche with the closest houses to the first house but not seen by the first i.e. 2nd and 12th houses. After all tuche comes from place we do not see sometimes "supporting" us from below (2nd house) and sometimes "crashing" on us from above (12th house)...

yeah I know, I am blabbering ... but so are some of the ancients... ha ha ha
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin wrote:
Meanwhile, back to the Thema Mundi, if anangke is associated to the fourth, wouldn't other angles be associated to the other types of fates? I don't see why not. If I were to make my own wacky associations...

Wait a minute...! what about Tuche (Chance). Well the most important indicator of Tuche is Lot of Fortune. In the Thema Mundi (nocturnal chart), Lot of Fortune would be in the 2nd house (Leo) and (if non-reversal is made) Lot of Fortune would be in the 12th house. Now, that's nice. We could associate Tuche with the closest houses to the first house but not seen by the first i.e. 2nd and 12th houses. After all tuche comes from place we do not see sometimes "supporting" us from below (2nd house) and sometimes "crashing" on us from above (12th house)...


Makes sense.

Schmidt associated fortune with the 7th as well but I think it's because fortune was depicted somewhere as striding across the prow of the ship (part of his explanation of the nautical metaphor). I wrote about this a few years ago (about 6 paragraphs down):

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/advancedeminence.html

Schmidt suggested that the reason why fortune was associated with the 7th is because it's the setting place and lots are cast out and fall from heaven. Therefore the motion that represents all lots is downward motion generally.
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astrojin



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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PD,

PD wrote:
Quote:
I was coming to the conclusion that Asc/Ven/sat lot in male horoscope had to do with marrying someone quite young.
(Charlie Chaplin, Rupert Murdoch, Hugh Hefner)
I wonder if this is a possibility. In olden times many of the King's wives and those in Harem were quite young.

The Paulus Lot indicates AND describes contractual/legal mearriage, not just mariage to younger spouse...
However, as mentioned above, the Lot will describe circumstances of the contractual legal marriage e.g. if the Lot is strongly associated to Saturn, then marriage at old age or marrying someone much younger is indicated (like conjoins Saturn and/or ruled by Saturn especially aspects a planet in the seventh that has dominion in seventh - either domicile or exalted lord of seventh).

In your examples:

Paulus Male marriage for Hugh Hefner is on 4 capricorn (ruled by Saturn) and the lot is aspected by Venus in Pisces in the 7th house (WS house) while Venus is exalted lord of seventh.

Paulus Male marriage for Charles Chaplin is on 13 Leo (conjunct Saturn to almost the degree) and the Lot aspects Venus in Taurus in the 7th house (WS house) while Venus is domicile lord of seventh.

Paulus Male marriage for Rupert Murdoch is on 17 capricorn (ruled by Saturn) AND conjoins saturn by about 4 degrees orb and the Lot aspects Jupiter in Cancer in the 7th house (WS house) while Jupiter is exalted lord of seventh.


Observe that Charles Chaplin and Rupert Murdoch are nocturnal births and I do not reverse the Lot formula!
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Larxene



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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intriguing discussion here. Thumbs up Keep it up guys.

Astrojin, can you give a brief overview, based on your research, what each planet indicates when associated with the Paulus/Valens Lots (excluding the Jupiter/Venus ones)?

These Lots must be very useful since relationship questions come up a lot.

In particular, I wonder what happens if Mars rules the Lot and is well-placed and is ruler of the 7th Place...
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Astrojin,

Taking this a bit further, what does not give a marriage ?

http://www.astro.com/astrodatabank/Category:Passions_:_Sexuality_:_Celibacy/_Minimal

Me thinks, based on minimal research ,that the dispositor of the lot if combust or in detriment make the native not believe in the institution of marriage.
The reason is that legal marriage is a responsibility and it needs strong dispositor to carry it through.


PD
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