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Best Source to learn Traditional techniques:Rank of Fame etc
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'our system' means that we -the students- learned. The one now practiced by my family. You can post a chart and I will explain how I do it. Or I can take 'Hitler's' chart.
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Yukionna



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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to post a chart (not mine). Would you be willing to do a blind reading? I'm asking, because often when delineating celebrities' charts, people (me included) already know a lot, and may subconsciously direct their delineation towards the 'right' results, so I find a blind one better. I do realize it's far more difficult, and this is certainly not about challenging you in any way, so if you'd rather do Hitler or any other for that matter I'd be much interested anyhow.
In case I post one, what housesystem do you prefer? I use whole sign, but it doesn't have to be.
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Yukionna



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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dear, I just noticed that I have absolutely no idea how to post a chart here, so you go ahead...
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Morpheus



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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would only be telling about how different planets are weak/strong ...or good/bad.. I don't need time of birth...so just type/post (ignore attaching a chart)

gender
names of planets...exact degree and minutes in a sign
whether that planet is retrograde or direct...

ignore Uranus, Neptune and Pluto...but don't forget to give me exact degrees and minutes of True Node.
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Yukionna



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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, here goes:

Male
Sun 22.58 Aquarius
Moon 09.35 Leo
Mercury 26.58 Capricorn
Venus 24.21 Aquarius
Mars 04.22 Aquarius
Jupiter 06.35 Gemini
Saturn 08.21 Capricorn
T. node 05.47 Taurus
All direct
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun

In Aquarius.

Average. In our system Sun and Jupiter have no detriment or fall


The strength of Sun is Average

Trines from Jupiter or Venus?

Yes. Trine from Jupiter (deg diff 16)

Square/opposition/conjunction from Node or Saturn?


Yes. Square from North Node.


The Sun is of average strength and is at the same time positive and negative.


The above Sun would show its results as a 'natural ruler', house ruler, and placement ruler.


Moon


IN the sign of a friend.

It has above average strength.

Square from North Node.
No trine from Jupiter and Venus.

The Moon is above average strong and Negative.


Mercury


In the sign of a friend (i.e Saturn)
In late degrees of a sign.
No trine from Jupiter or Venus.
No square from Node (ignore Sturn because it is Mercury friend).


We have Mercury which is above average strong but it is neither negative nor positive. The point is that Mercury being gullible planet has no moral direction in this chart. All depends upon the native's upbringing, parents and what kind of associates he has.


Venus

In the sign of a friend. (strong)
Sun in the same sign (more strong..see there is no combustion in our system. Morin has the same views)

Trine from Jupiter and Square from Node.

We have Venus which is strong. Stronger than three discussed as above and is at the same time negative as well as positive...


I hope it is suffice how we delineate a planet. We ignore house position.
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
I dear, I just noticed that I have absolutely no idea how to post a chart here, so you go ahead...


Go to http://imgur.com/

Upload your image and it will provide you with a number of ways of embedding or copying that image. One of them will be for forums or in 'bbcode'. If you make your best guess at how to implement into the forum, I can find the URL and correct it for you if you wish.
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: Best Source to learn Traditional techniques:Rank of Fame Reply with quote

Morpheus wrote:
Hi All,

I professionally practice a type of traditional astrology which is only 'predictive' in nature. I have observed that the 'art' I practice do not have following techniques.


1. Hyleg
2. Rank of Fame
3. Rank of Slavery &
4. Temperament.

I want to incorporate the above techniques in my practice.


I agree with the recommendations given here, particularly Dorian Greenbaum's book on temperament.

You can find some examples of eminence by Curtis Manwaring (who posts here) on his site:
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/advancedeminence.html

In the same manner of trying to save you some money before you buy books you can find a translation of Dorotheus' book here on skyscript, and you may find these notes that Deb Houlding wrote up to be particularly helpful, especially in regards the hyleg:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus3notes.pdf

That said, it is one thing to want to learn more about these things, but in my experience that may mean incorporating the full plethora of techniques that come under this umbrella. So if part of it is to check essential dignity, then this is part of the system.
It sounds like you have your own system and you wish to marry it somehow to the traditional approaches. I'm not sure how easily that can be done.

Before getting into things like eminence and the hyleg, it may be easier to get to grips with things like accidental fortitudes, essential dignity, sect etc.


Quote:
First of all we determine whether a planet or planetary body is weak or strong. Secondly we determine whether it is 'good' and bad.

Essential dignities determine the strength of a planet.
Accidental dignities determine the 'goodness' or otherwise of a planet.


Quite the opposite. Essential dignities tell us something about the inherent or internal quality or essence of the planet involved - how together it is. It is very much a qualitative focus in determining the quality of the planet and its ability to do what it does in a constructive and orthodox way.

Accidental fortitudes are used in determining the strength or ability of a planet to bring its actions to fruition - it is the ability to act.

The difference between the two can be difficult to grasp at first, but the essential qualities are something inherent in the nature of the planet and its expression, whereas the accidental ones are not inherent but something related to how or why the planet is placed and has a sense of temporariness - it's a quality that may have or lack at this time.

If this seems no less clear, then think of essential dignity as being bestowed by its position in the zodiac - anything else is accidental fortitude.

Out of interest, to repeat Yukionna's question to you, when you talk of "our system" what system is it and how/where did you learn it?
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morpheus wrote:

I hope it is suffice how we delineate a planet. We ignore house position.


Morpheus

But you haven't said anything at all about this person - merely given a check list of things found in the chart. But what of the person? What conclusions do you draw from any of these things. In other words, what does it all mean?

Let me take one example.

Quote:
Moon


IN the sign of a friend.

It has above average strength.

Square from North Node.
No trine from Jupiter and Venus.

The Moon is above average strong and Negative.


What does it mean for the person that their moon is in the sign of a friend? What does it mean that it has above average strength and 'negative' - what is negative?
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,

Thanks for the suggestion regarding books and material for study.


Now I come to the second part.

If I have merely stopped at describing a planet as being strong or weak and negative or positive. It tells my inability to do any kind of cold or blind reading.


I will try to explain it.


Of two people born at a same time, place or date. What makes them different or how there chart act differently.

It is because of their number in the order of the siblings if any, parents (if they are dependent on them), associates (if they are grown up), bosses, and close friends.

The chart maybe constant for two persons but there can not be agreement between parents, number in the siblings, associates, bosses or close friends.

There is a system where I can check in seconds the influence of a close associate.


Now the second problem is the 'free will'. Some will argue that our free will is dependent upon those attitudes and habits which we are unable to change.


Take the example of 'Sun'. If the Sun is negative. We need to see what Sun represents in the chart. That is not possible if we don't discuss it with the client.

In general terms. Sun represents father, elder brother, authorities, and other things.

Now a negative Sun means either this person has negative experience of a father. or his father got into problems gradually after the birth of this person. It could also mean that if person decided to 'respect' his father. His father start having problems of his own (seemingly not caused by his Son).

In view of the above, how can I hit on any single statement if I am doing a blind reading.

Sun also represents the fame or otherwise of a person. Negative Sun also shows that a person can still achieve fame if he adopts those point of views, which are against the 'norms' of that time, he can still be famous (or infamy) of he starts arguing or questioning the authorities.

Now, there is other problem. If that person has a parent or a very close associate whose chart is supporting his Sun. The negative expression of Sun in his chart might be minimized.


He might have an associate or spouse, whose chart hurts his Sun more and we can have a person who acts more negatively (as far as expression of Sun is concerned).


So many variables. Blind or cold reading for me is tough


And we only discussed one natural association of Sun. There are many.


I learned it from a person, who according to his claims learned it from a Persia. I was taught orally. Yesterday, I was reading a post on 'Morin' and found that his ideas on 'Combustion' and ours was same. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4365
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Morpheus



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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul,

I use Frawley's system (not mine) while doing horaries. When I do horaries I use his system of essential and accidental dignities. It matches with what you described in one of your above post.
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morpheus wrote:

Take the example of 'Sun'. If the Sun is negative. We need to see what Sun represents in the chart. That is not possible if we don't discuss it with the client.

In general terms. Sun represents father, elder brother, authorities, and other things.

Now a negative Sun means either this person has negative experience of a father. or his father got into problems gradually after the birth of this person. It could also mean that if person decided to 'respect' his father. His father start having problems of his own (seemingly not caused by his Son).

In view of the above, how can I hit on any single statement if I am doing a blind reading.


But that's okay, just by providing that a negative sun means that the person has a negative experience of a father, or his father got into troubles after birth, etc. is a conclusion. At least those are actually statements about the person and not merely a check list of things in the chart devoid of any interpretational value. By providing these kinds of "generally this can be..." statements we provide some interpretational value.

Quote:
So many variables. Blind or cold reading for me is tough

And we only discussed one natural association of Sun. There are many


Tough for everyone, part of the art of interpretation though is, in my opinion, being able to take a symbol, which could mean a thousand things depending on context, and articulating at least some likely or more relevant associations of the placement, and of course in real life you can have a conversation and consult with the client and get a better picture of how that applies in their life, but we should be still able to give some, even simple, associations or statements.

For example, I may say that someone with Moon square Saturn has a difficult or strained relationship with the mother or with experiences of nurture whilst growing up - perhaps the mother was absent, ill or incapable in some regards or was a woman who we saw as facing great difficulties of her own. Perhaps the native with this combination had to take on extra responsibility from a young age, or was forced to grow up quickly. As the person grows up there can be a fear that nurture or security could be threatened or removed.

Now that's just a brief paragraph and may not apply to everyone with the combination and we don't even look at any other placement here and it's probably a more psychological depiction than a traditional one. But at least it's a step in the right direction and tells us a lot more than saying: Moon square Saturn: negative. Otherwise we just list statuses with no context of what they mean.
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,

You have a way with words. I agree with your above post. My reluctance to a cold/bind reading is my initial exposure to Natal Astrology. I was apprenticed to a teacher in my teenage, who taught what he knew and discouraged me making general statements. In the end, he transferred what he wanted to and made me able to read charts of live and present clients.

The result is, I have not felt need or necessity to enlarge my knowledge regarding houses, planets, or predictive system as far as natal astrology is concerned.

So, when I read threads where earnest seekers after truth are trying their best to learn what 'this' or 'that' teacher meant. Atleast I can relax. There must have been error in translations, transmission, misgivings, an attempt to hide the truth, or the language of that period which is making it hard for the current generation to reach to the definite conclusion. And definitely in building a coherent system be it Helenistic or otherwise.


Horary astrology community today is thankful to the efforts of people like Derek Appleby, Olivia, John Frawley, Deborah, Lee Lehman and others who spent every moment of their life to understand what ancients said and what actually 'works'. (and the wonderful translations done by all the Roberts and Benjamin Dykes)


People like me who can not spend so much time in research, need teachers like those described in above paragraph to learn a 'definite and workable system.


But as all systems in this world, the natal system that I learned is not that 'complete. Somehow, it 'does not have


-Hyleg
-Rank of fame
-Rank of Slavery &
-Temperament.


I made few experiments with Hyleg in 2007. I read a lecture delivered by Bernadette Brady. Tested on different charts and saw it tallied with information gleaned from 'Palmistry'. One week ago I had same experience with 'Rank of fame'.


So I was thinking of learning above in no uncertain terms and see if it can be easily incorporated into the 'system', hence the object of starting this thread.
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Yukionna



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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Morpheus,
well, that is different from how I look at planets.
I do blind readings regularly, so I know it's possible, but it isn't easy, true.

Hi Paul,
thanks for the link, I may have to make use of it at some point when I decide to post something here.
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Hsn1983



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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buy the series persian nativity books by benjamin dykes it has details on hyleg interesting information , you find them in his website at cheaper price
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