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Circumambulations/Directing through the bounds
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Lazarus



Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 88

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:37 pm    Post subject: Circumambulations/Directing through the bounds Reply with quote

I'm wondering if anyone has had any success using this technique. I am currently trying to test it on my own chart first using the Ascendant and Ascensional times and also using the Moon, which is the Hyleg and very powerfully placed, but instead of using Ascensional times I use Ptolemic PDs to direct it through the bounds.

In any case I have thus far found some minor hits with both releasers but have not been wowed or totally convinced by the efficiency of this technique, especially when compared to the much cruder Firdaria (I call it crude but I am continuously amazed at its accuracy, though it seems to only be accurate in conjunction with other techniques like profections and solar returns -or- it just doesn't give us the whole picture one might say, and perhaps there is no one time lord technique that does).

I am basically just wondering what kinds of results other people have gotten using it and if perhaps it is best for a certain topic of life specifically?

*I should also add that I have taken Ben Dykes' workshop on the subject and while it appears to work very well for him it still has not clicked for me like firdaria, profections, and ZR has in terms of seeing results or correlations.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: Circumambulations/Directing through the bounds Reply with quote

Lazarus wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone has had any success using this technique. I am currently trying to test it on my own chart first using the Ascendant and Ascensional times and also using the Moon, which is the Hyleg and very powerfully placed, but instead of using Ascensional times I use Ptolemic PDs to direct it through the bounds.

I use this all the time (with Ptolemaic directions, as you say: directing the Asc by oblique ascension, the MC by right ascension, etc), and I think it works like a charm. But I use a sidereal zodiac to determine the terms/bounds, which of course alters things (although the promissors are unchanged).

Another important factor, mentioned in several texts but really brought to my attention by Konrad on this forum, is what planets are transiting through the terms in question, particularly at the time of the annual revolution. The placement of the chronocrators in the revolution is also very revealing.
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Lazarus



Joined: 10 Dec 2014
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. Do you use them in tandem with Firdaria or do you just use them instead of. Also I am assuming that in the SR chart any planet in any bound that the chronocrator rules in any sign? This is what I have understood from On Solar Revolutions.

Also I am curious about directing any planet/point in this manner to see if one could get a general idea of what is going on for the various areas of life. Have you tried this?
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Vasanth



Joined: 05 Jun 2011
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lazarus,

I am no expert in 'directing by bounds' technique. But if you really want to investigate this technique, I suggest you the 'Rectification Manual' by Dr.H. Also the book 'America is born' has comprehensive analysis of distributors and participators for the Ascendant.

Basically from what I understand, the distributor accounts for around 50% of the effect, and the recent participator another 50%.

One understanding is that since the participator is a planet in the natal, its effect could be ascertained easily than the distributor. The distributor is what I believe adds more color and brings in new things than what could be easily read from the natal.

Also to start off and keep things simple, it would be better to concentrate on the Ascendant or Midheaven's distributors and participators.

When you start directing planets and their aspects as well, things does become quite complex. But probably that is the key as to how a natal chart gets a window to the full zodiac.
To get a gist of this complexity, check the analysis of 'directions of jupiter' by Dr.H here -> http://regulus-astrology.com/pdf/Review_of_Primary_Directions_-_Astrologys_Old_Master_Technique_6_Oct_2009.pdf

Also since there are multiple techniques occuring at the same time - fidaria, profections, directing by triplicity, solar returns, ... each one brings its theme to the table; and what we see is a mixture. To separate out the different layers for understanding is quite an art!

Hope this helps.

Vasanth


Last edited by Vasanth on Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Vasanth



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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adding one more invaluable reference, related to the topic

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus3notes.pdf

What I found useful (at least theoretically) ->
When the directed ascendant is in the terms of a malefic or (more severely) aspects a malefic; the ray of a benefic into the term of the directed ascendant is a protective influence.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lazarus wrote:
Interesting. Do you use them in tandem with Firdaria or do you just use them instead of.

Instead of. My first contact with traditional astrology of any sort was with the Indian tradition, so I've experimented with many techniques similar to firdaria over the years, but I find that directions top the lot.

Quote:
Also I am assuming that in the SR chart any planet in any bound that the chronocrator rules in any sign? This is what I have understood from On Solar Revolutions.

Do you have a reference for that that I could look at? It's not how I use or understand the technique. Rather, if the directed significator is, say, in the terms of Mercury in Sagittarius (17-21 degrees), then in the revolution I look for any planet occupying or, secondarily, aspecting those degrees.

Quote:
Also I am curious about directing any planet/point in this manner to see if one could get a general idea of what is going on for the various areas of life. Have you tried this?

I have, and I think it's useful. What points are most relevant will depend on the setup of the natal chart, but the Asc and MC are always major significators.
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Lazarus



Joined: 10 Dec 2014
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for these sources. I will investigate further. I finally had a break through in using the technique once again yesterday just focusing on the Ascendant in my own chart. Just looking at the what the bound rulers would have to say about the general spirit of the times is actually very revealing and in many ways spot on again in a very general manner. But this is enough for me to believe the technique is not only valid but highly useful. Both of your responses have been helpful in the sense that I felt urged to take a closer look. Thanks.
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Lazarus



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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin, I will have to look in the text again to be sure but there was a footnote given by Ben Dykes when discussing this technique where he mentioned this idea and said it was probably a case of what is called (or translated) as "neighboring" in Hellenistic astrology.
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Lazarus



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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay I found it: "Likewise one must consider which ones of the planets are ejecting their rays, and in whose ray the distributor appears, and which of the planets was in their bounds, both in the nativity and in the revolution" - pg 137 On Solar Revolutions translated by Ben Dykes

Also Dykes, in a footnote on pg 32, in his review of this technique in the introduction to the text, writes: "My sense of this passage is that perhaps one could examine a planet in any of that distributor's bounds, and not just the one in the distribution itself. This would be akin to the Hellenistic concept of "neighboring". In fact, Abu Ma'shar might really mean neighboring: if a planet is aspecting the distributor from any bound belonging to that distributor" (footnote 170).
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. I’d forgotten that footnote of Ben’s. Personally, though, I’m fairly convinced that what Abū Maʿshar meant was the terms (or bounds, if you prefer) through which the significator is currently directed. That seems to be the general tenor among the Arabic-language authors who discuss this technique.

I had a look at ‘Zādānfarrūkh al-Andarzaghar on Anniversary Horoscopes’ by Burnett and al-Hamdi (because I’m lazy and I happen to have it in an easily searchable format, unlike Ben’s translations), and it has several passages of this kind [the underlinings are mine]:

Quote:
… it is necessary for you that you judge to that native in this year that he will get a high position and wealth and good and much good-fortune, especially if the sālkhudāh [ruler of the year] and the jānbakhtār [divisor, which Ben translates as ‘distributor’] aspect that term in which the prorogator is.

Quote:
And if the division is to the malefics and that malefic does not help the native in his base-nativity, but it is one of the ones that harm, and you see in the base-nativity and in the change of the year that that malefic aspects the term in which the prorogator is, and the benefics do not aspect, and you find the sālkhudāh and the jānbakhtār and the Moon and the ascendent of the year injured, then it brings a judgement against that native that he will die in that year.

(This was translated directly from the Arabic, unlike Ben’s previous translations but like his forthcoming ones, which I am eagerly anticipating!)
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Lazarus



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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for those passages. That is helpful. I think I will continue to experiment with both approaches as the concept of Neighboring makes a lot of sense to me in this context.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am very new to this directing through bounds but I am only getting accurate timing by 1degree of term= 1 year . I just do the mental addition, ignore the Obl ascension or right ascension.

Somehow, I find it much easier to handle than the primaries and the rotating earth or turning point.How did the Indians miss this one or there would have been sub-periods and sub-sub periods like other Dasa periods .

PD
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The technique did enter India during the second (Arabic-language) transmission of astrology from the north-west, if not during the first (Greek-language) one. But it was misunderstood or simplified in exactly the way you describe and apparently didn't catch on. The simplified version is described briefly in the मनुष्यजातक Manuṣyajātaka (the original title of which seems to have been कर्मप्रकाश Karmaprakāśa).

In a way, the year itself can be seen as a sub-period within the period related to any given terms (their divisio or qisma in Arabic, Sanskritized as kisimā), and the months, etc, as sub-sub-periods. But the Indian Tājika authors treat the year as the greatest unit and invent various daśā systems to subdivide the year, sometimes adapting or 'creatively misunderstanding' Perso-Arabic techniques.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
The technique did enter India during the second (Arabic-language) transmission of astrology from the north-west, if not during the first (Greek-language) one. But it was misunderstood or simplified in exactly the way you describe and apparently didn't catch on. The simplified version is described briefly in the मनुष्यजातक Manuṣyajātaka (the original title of which seems to have been कर्मप्रकाश Karmaprakāśa).

In a way, the year itself can be seen as a sub-period within the period related to any given terms (their divisio or qisma in Arabic, Sanskritized as kisimā), and the months, etc, as sub-sub-periods. But the Indian Tājika authors treat the year as the greatest unit and invent various daśā systems to subdivide the year, sometimes adapting or 'creatively misunderstanding' Perso-Arabic techniques.


Thanks, very helpful.
I wonder if the Bhrigu samhita or Nadi astrologers were using the technique for predicting events. Now, I remember that a couple of Nadi readings that have come to my notice used some irregular periods of time for prediction. I could not figure out how they arrived at those blocks of time.

PD
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
I wonder if the Bhrigu samhita or Nadi astrologers were using the technique for predicting events. Now, I remember that a couple of Nadi readings that have come to my notice used some irregular periods of time for prediction. I could not figure out how they arrived at those blocks of time.

I've never come across anything like that myself, but I have seen it suggested that the periods that underlie the so-called minor years of the planets (such as 8 years for Venus and 15 for Mars), and which are based on astronomical cycles, were used in some nāḍi texts. But we're drifting off topic. Smile
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