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Will the UK leave the EU?
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marjorie orr seems to lean towards no brexit... her astrology is scattered around under a search at her site for brexit..
the main post focuses on camerons chart being upbeat at the time of june 23rd...
here is the general link to brexit search -

http://star4cast.ca/?s=brexit

and the more specific brexit / cameron post -

http://star4cast.ca/brexit-cameron-looking-upbeat-come-june-23/
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Mark
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks James,

Good idea of hers to look more widely at other nativities.

Although like most mods her analysis fixates on outer planet transits. Most modern astrologers would probably concur with her about Cameron. But her analysis seems a bit one sided to me. What about that Pluto square to his Sun? She also ignores his tough solar arcs. She also seems to ignore Johnson has a Jupiter-Jupiter trine all through the campaign!

I am coming from these charts differently as I give a lot of emphasis to profections, then solar returns and only then look at activated transits to activated planets.

Still, i would have to concede I dont feel as confident in predicting here as I did on the Scottish referendum. The astrological indicators do seem more contradictory to me.

Anyway, I will post up more of my own rationale based on natal charts and UK national charts.

Mark
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Mjacob



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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


it seems the question over whether saturn or mars is the lord of the year for the 2016 ingress was not universal.. would anyone like to add to the discussion on this? i think all of it is relevant to the issue on the uk for 2016...


Thanks for the reminder. Looking back at Goran's remarks in the context of the present situation with Brexit and his nomination of Saturn as LOY was interesting particularly the bit about assassination. I do not think that would play out literally but one Conservative MP has openly and extraordinarily called for a metaphorical stabbing of his own leader and Chancellor

In a later post someone suggests looking at the relevant natal charts of Cameron and Boris Johnson to see if they would reflect the outcome of the referendum but I am not sure this would work. There is a suggestion that Cameron would be ousted by his own side even if the Remain camp prevailed. Perhaps the people would protest if they felt the poll was fixed

Matthew
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Mark
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Matthew,

Thanks. Any thoughts on the outcome of the referendum yourself?

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Tue May 31, 2016 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mjacob



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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Hi Mathew,

Thanks. Any thoughts on the outcome of the referendum yourself?

Mark


Hi Mark - It is certainly a subject that I have been thinking about and I shall look again at the Astrology . In my opinion the question is best asked by looking at it from a Eurocentric view rather than from the UK

the UK may be a nuisance hovering on the western fringe but money talks and I gather that after Germany the UK is the only nation that pays in more than it takes out. The question is one of shall the EU lose a major ally in an act of rebellion albeit a democratic one

Looking at it from a shall the UK leave point of view reminds the mythical Times headline " Fog in the Channel - continent isolated" Smile
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Mark
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Matthew,

Quote:
Looking at it from a shall the UK leave point of view reminds the mythical Times headline " Fog in the Channel - continent isolated


Great quote. Apparently it was a real headline! It was a headline in The Times on 22 October, 1957, when air and sea traffic in the English Channel was temporarily shut down. This seemed unfortunate not because it cut Britain off from Europe – but because it cut Europe off from Britain!

I take your point about a wider EU perspective. But the institution is struggling with various crises such as migrant problem and the increasingly right wing governments in eastern Europe such as Hungary, Slovakia and Poland. How do we separate out a possible UK Brexit?

Still, I think this would be by far the biggest set back for the EU in its entire history.

More practically, which of the various charts for Europe do we use? I favour the 1993 chart as I think the supra-national political aspirations of the EU have only become explicit since then.

Mark
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Mjacob



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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

I take your point about a wider EU perspective. But the institution is struggling with various crises such as migrant problem and the increasingly right wing governments in eastern Europe such as Hungary, Slovakia and Poland. How do we separate out a possible UK Brexit?



There is a difference I would say. The disquiet in other European countries has not quite reached the same level as it has in the UK. The renegotiation by the UK was a case of Cameron demanding reform with the threat of the UK breaking away if he did not get it . Pusillanimous though he was this was an act of rebellion more significant than Hungary building a barbed wire fence.

For the rest of Europe we could use the house for the people. For the EU establishment the 10th and perhaps for Britain the 4th as the opposers to the 10th ?

If so for the Brussels ingress Saturn is still LOY following Goran's previous so we now interpret for EU rather than UK. Saturn squares Jupiter L10 as does Mars and I do not think the opposition of Venus ( and Neptune) really does much to break the enclosure so not good for EU

I am not the first to reference "fog in the channel" to the UK in Europe context. A French politician once predicted " Never again will we see this headline in an English paper" after the UK signed some ever closer union treaty. He could be proved wrong

Matthew
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjacobwrote:

Quote:
If so for the Brussels ingress Saturn is still LOY following Goran's previous so we now interpret for EU rather than UK. Saturn squares Jupiter L10 as does Mars and I do not think the opposition of Venus ( and Neptune) really does much to break the enclosure so not good for EU


I haven't checked out the traditional sources thoroughly enough to take a considered view on how the Lord of the Year is determined myself but I just wanted to note that Peter Stockinger (relying on Bonatti) previously suggested Mars was the LOY for the UK in this Aries ingress while in the Aries ingress for Brussels he suggests the LOY shifted to the Moon.

https://starsandstones.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/aries-ingress-of-the-sun-2016-for-uk-and-usa/

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark and matthew

thanks for the additional interesting comments!

mark - regarding your last post - that was what i was raising in my post Mon May 02, 2016 3:55 am ..

goran and i had this conversation previously in 2015 and so it was interesting to see peter stockinger coming out suggesting mars as loy, as that was the tact i had taken within the conversation with goran to which goran was firm in saying saturn was loy.. it might not matter if you read the diverse literature on this as there are going to be subjective considerations in any weighing of astrological factors.

matthew - i had to look up pusillanimous! interesting word!!
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Mjacob



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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:



matthew - i had to look up pusillanimous! interesting word!!
yes but in contrast perhaps the Brits will be bolder in backing Brexit in the ballot - will consider further
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James-M wrote:
Quote:
mark - regarding your last post - that was what i was raising in my post Mon May 02, 2016 3:55 am ..


Yes James I did spot that! I totally missed it at the time as 2015 was something of an annus horribilus for me.

It was an interesting thread. Goran made some very useful observations as did you and Matthew.

I should just mention that Sharon Knight concurs with Goran in assigning Saturn as LOY in the UK ingress.

But ultimately, I am more interested here in where people take such judgements in terms of overall delineation and prediction.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks mark,

i like the fact different astrologers arrive at different conclusions.. makes it less black and white to me which i like..

my rationale for mars as loy in the 2016 aries ingress to london might have been similar to stockingers - mars on the midheaven angle and a planet of the nocturnal sect, as opposed to saturn which is ruler of the ascendant.. i like it that astrologers don't arrive at the same conclusions..

as you say, it is more interesting to see the conclusions that go with the astrology..
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
i like the fact different astrologers arrive at different conclusions.. makes it less black and white to me which i like..


Well yes it wouldn't be astrology without a few disagreements!

As far as I can establish the difference over LOY boils down to whether we choose to give priority to planets with the greatest essential dignity over key angles or those that have the strongest accidental dignity through angularity in those positions.

Whatever, approach we take angular planets are critical in ingress charts. Different locations can have the same signs on the angles but certain planets can become more angular in one chart compared to another.

I remember looking at the UK ingress chart for 2016 a while back and noticed that that the angular Mars line was spot on the MC located for Liverpool England. I thought this meant Liverpool would be the focus of public attention for some reason but I had no idea why. It turned out that a damning judgement came out highlighting the behaviour of the Police over the the Hillsborough disaster of 1989 in late April 2016. An inquest jury found the victims had been unlawfully killed. 96 Liverpool fans died in the disaster and at the time the Police (and the national Newspaper the Sun) blamed the behaviour of Liverpool fans for this. Moreover, there had been a Police cover up for decades over the real events that day. The issue had left a sense of grievance in the city for decades and many Liverpudlians have boycotted the Sun newspaper ever since for its biased reporting blaming the the behaviour of Liverpool fans for the disaster.

The day after the inquest jury verdict tens of thousands gathered outside Liverpool’s St George’s Hall to hold a public meeting to commemorate the judgement and to pay tribute to to the 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster in a special ceremony marking the 27-year struggle for truth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/Hillsborough-disaster-verdict-96-victims-unlawfully-killed-jury-concludes/

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/thousands-attend-hillsborough-commemoration-st-11247884



Mark
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Mjacob



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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we are to go for angularity then Mars is 10th in the UK chart but Saturn is closer to the angle in the Brussels chart as I am trying visualise them so we could give Mars to the 9th for EU

Looking at Raphael 1931 he states Mars in the ninth is trouble in colonial affairs so bad for EU. For Mars in the tenth for London it is open to different interpretations so is a little harder to say but I will try and work out something to say taking into account aspects

Matthew
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

that is a pretty horrible event with resolution taking so long - 27 years.. wow... i note saturn and jupiter square exactly 45/135 the ascendant degree for liverpool.. i wonder if that somehow relates to this? to me some matter that has been left to fester for such a long time would be captured with saturn ruling over the 12th (police cover up and etc).. and i think the idea of a judicial matter with this judgment would connect to saturn and jupiter again, but i could make a connection with mars and the police.. i don't share bonatis view - if this is his view - that mars on an angle is bad... especially given it is a nocturnal chart... i see saturn as the challenging influence..

however, i can see mars as the planet in focus and ruling over 9th house matters - if we use the placidus house cusps which i assume your chart has - bringing us back to judicial matters like this being highlighted.. the 135 between mars and uranus is another off topic astro pov for me here too...

the time of the hillsborough calamity has moon at 25 leo - just a passing coincidence i suppose..
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