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Will the UK leave the EU?
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 648

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:33 pm    Post subject: Will the UK leave the EU? Reply with quote

Is this EEC chart the one to use for the European Union? 1st January 1958 Brussels. Phaethon 8 degrees Cancer 48 minutes. http://www.dominantstar.com/a_eec2.htm

In the EEC chart, Pluto in Virgo is opposition the antiscion of Jupiter 28.5 degrees Libra/1.5 degrees Pisces. Transiting IsisTranspluto is opposing Jupiter's antiscion, and conjunct Pluto.
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amelia



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Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just looked back at my 2013-16 forecasts for the UK which I made in 2013.

These were based on the 1801 chart, natal, transits and progressed planets. It is a bit misleading to just pick out a short period as I forecast on cyclical rolling trends but, bearing in mind that I did not know at the time of writing for sure there would be a referendum and certainly not the timing, what I said was quite intresting:


I said ( significators in brackets)
Quote:
This passivity continues into March and April, accompanied by some big announcements or media expansion
(SA tri ME& ASCp, JU squ ME & ASCp), NP sxt SO sxt MA);

then

Quote:
The summer is not too eventful either. But this is misleading. There is a change in the way the UK people relate that is happening in the background that will have a permanent impact on the way the country operates in the future.
(UR tri SA, SA tri JUp SOp, PL sxt NP qnx ASC, and especially MOp cnj ASC opp ME)

Although my interpretation of what that might mean at the time did not relate to the EU (the major difficulty forecasting is making the right attribution!) , in retrospect it seems to be so. And thus the suggestion is we will leave.

I hope I am wrong though.
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pipedreamer



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Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:28 am    Post subject: Poll closing time Reply with quote

Has anyone considered the chart for the poll closing time which I think is at 22:00?
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: Will the UK leave the EU? Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
Is this EEC chart the one to use for the European Union? 1st January 1958 Brussels. Phaethon 8 degrees Cancer 48 minutes. http://www.dominantstar.com/a_eec2.htm

In the EEC chart, Pluto in Virgo is opposition the antiscion of Jupiter 28.5 degrees Libra/1.5 degrees Pisces. Transiting IsisTranspluto is opposing Jupiter's antiscion, and conjunct Pluto.


I think the chart on this site is also commonly used for EU
http://www.world-of-wisdom.com/04_articles/2001/04_eu.htm
That chart is imo quite fitting and as well under severe stress now.
Progressed MC have progressed forward to contact the natal T-Square involving moon, pluto, mars and Saturn, showing a key time of difficult developments.
Coming eclipses to Saturn in 8H as well in autumn reflecting some restraints and challenges ahead.

(I who also use jyotish noted that EU chart is in a planetary period of Node.
During the bombing recently close to the EU parlament in brussell, transing Mars had joined Node in a conjunction.)
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Fleur



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Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan, this is the chart using the data from your link.

Very striking grand cross, Saturn, IsisTranspluto, Moon, and Pluto Mars. As well as the exact Uranus Neptune conjunction.

Jupiter in this chart is 28 degrees Libra, antiscion 2 degrees Pisces, so the antiscion is being transited now by IsisTranspluto in early Virgo. In a person's chart that might manifest in some form of "aging".

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Mark
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Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pipedreamer wrote:
Quote:
Has anyone considered the chart for the poll closing time which I think is at 22:00?


Not here but on a Facebook group the English astrologer, Julian Venables has delineated the end of poll chart to work out whether the remain or leave campaigns will win.

I have Julian's permission to include his comments from that post here on Skyscript:

Julian Venebales wrote:
Quote:
So the EU referendum is set for June 23rd. My first thought on seeing the 'polls closing' chart of 10pm were that the date was chosen by an astrologer! (but that must be wishful thinking, right?)




Julian Venebales wrote:
Quote:

Mars is on its stationary direct degree, coming to the end of its retrograde cycle in its domicile and angular in a fixed sign. So not much changes in the general upward (MC) direction due to fixity. But quite a bit of 'assertive emotional manipulation'(Mars in Scorpio) by 'the bosses'(10th house) going on then with this placement.

Mercury also in its own mutable sign, but having separated from it squaring the nodes and jupiter, its still full of gossip and chatty ideas, but in the 6th house of daily routines - are we still in two (Gemini) minds about how it could be implemented? Err, yes. Its next aspect is a sextile to Uranus in Aries in the 4th- the facts (Merc in Gemini) are that 'revolution'(Uranus) needs to be implemented with whats already going on at home (4th), not abroad.

The Sun is in 'homely' and 'familiar feelings' Cancer along with the attractor Venus, helping to enhance our 'sense of belonging' to the EU 'tribe'- there's a lot about the job and workers (6th house) and how they are valued (Venus) linked to this.


Interesting to see the chart ruler is Saturn in Sagittarius in the 11th- the 'future'(11th) of 'bureaucracy'(Saturn) is ultimately to do with the 'bigger picture' (Sagittarius) and of course 'religious caution' (Saturn in Sag) is heavily tied up into this referendum.

So the actual voters decision will be carried by the moon, which is in oddball Aqaurius- also a 'fixed' sign. Moon in Aquarius can be stubborn and unchangeable in its feelings about something... the moon's next aspects are an Inconjunct to the node and Jupiter, followed by a trine to Mercury. Jupiter is in its detriment in Virgo, not a happy place for it as there are too many details and over-analysis (and worries). So the inconjunct is about 'adjustment'; yes there are changes (Jupiter/Saturn square in mutable signs) afoot, but we (the people/moon) still 'crave open community' (Moon in Aquarius) - just think of all those british ex-pats in Spain and living around europe- no one calls them immigrants. The Moon in Aquarius 'needs to express individual vision' but is very much 'attached to the idea' of being detached on its own, as well as making a meaningful contribution to society.

Then the Moon in Aquarius trines mercury in Gemini, both planets in rational and reasoning Air signs- much discussion and thinking but staying friendly and indifferent overall.

My prediction for the outcome is the UK will stay in EU.
Its all just Tory spin and window dressing, folks, at least until 2020!
JV


With all due respect to Julian I am not personally convinced the close of poll chart is really a reliable contest chart. Traditionally, astrology relies on an inception moment and the opening of poll chart seems to fit that role much better in my view.

I am not saying close of poll charts are not very useful. I think they are the key transit chart to compare to the natal charts of major players or national charts. Nevertheless, I will be taking a look at the opening poll chart in my next post to see if that gives any clues on whether the Remain or Leave campaigns are more likely to win the referendum.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are various astrological approaches one can take to such issues such as Ingress charts, national charts, or natal charts of the key players. Another option though is the chart for the day of polling. That is the approach I have decided to use here.

I know some astrologers use a close of poll chart arguing this represents the end of the contest (10pm on 23rd of June). However, I personally, think a chart timed for the opening of poll chart is more effective in revealing the outcome of an event like this (7AM on 23rd June 2016). Firstly, astrology has always relied on inceptions or the beginnings of things to draw up a chart whether a birth or starting a business. Secondly, I think we should approach this as a traditional contest chart just as people do for sporting events. I have looked at lots of UK general elections in this way and it seems to lead to more reliable results than the end of poll time chart. In contrast I find end of poll charts very useful as a final transit chart to compare against natal and national charts.





House Systems: The chart is displayed in Equal & Placidus houses. I tend to use Whole sign and Equal over quadrant. I like to see the ASC-DESC axis clearly displayed and this works better with Equal. I have looked at the chart in Placidus too and include that in my analysis for those that work that way.

Rulerships: I am a traditional astrologer in that sense that I only consider the 7 visible planets as rulers of the signs. When appropriate I also look at other kinds of rulership such as exaltation, triplicity and bound/term.

Chart Interpretation: Firstly, using the principle laid down by Guido Bonatti questions of status quo vs change are represented by the 1st and 7th house respectively. The placement of these signs planetary rulers will also be indicative of the result.

The Moon by placement, dispositor and applying aspect is an indicator where the will of the people flows during the contest.

Firstly, I note cardinal or moveable signs on all the angles of the chart. This would support the idea of some kind of significant change taking place.

Cancer and Capricorn are the signs on the ASC-DESC axis. It has been noted that a majority of younger voters favour remaining in the EU while a majority of older voters support the leave campaign. This fits the planetary rulers of each sign with the Moon associated with youth and Saturn older age.

The Moon (ruling the 1st house) falls in the angular 7th house in most systems of sign division. Although by whole sign it is placed in the 8th place from the ASC. In ancient astrology the 7th house was often seen as consistent with settling in another country far from home. The fact the Moon is in this house would seem to indicate public support moving to the leave campaign.

If we instead use a whole sign approach the Moon is in the 8th house. This is part shows the importance of economic issues in this debate. In part the effect of foreign investment and also the economic impact of wider EU immigration on the UK economy. The 8th house indicates the fear, distress and anxiety amongst the public associated with this decision. Both campaigns have been accused of trying to scare the electorate. In the case of Remain over economic issues while the Leave campaign have stoked up immigration concerns. Moreover, with the public so divided on this issue it might be said that both sides fear the consequences of the other campaign winning. The Moon is Aquarius is in aversion to its sign of Cancer indicating a social disconnection taking place.

Although the Moon could be taken as the ruler of those favouring status quo it is also a general indicator of the will of the public here.

The Moon in Aquarius is disposited by Saturn which is the 7th house ruler and indicative of change. The Moon is making only one aspect that will perfect during the election day which is a sextile to Saturn (Lord 7). In this instance this would be consistent with public support going to the leave campaign. Most probably due to older voters turning out in higher numbers to support the Leave option.

Saturn the ruler of the 7th house is placed in the 5th house in Equal & Placidus. Perhaps indicating the luck or fortune are with the Leave campaign. Although Saturn is retrograde. In some respects though this could delineated as the Leave campaign attempt to turn back the clock to a time outside the EU. Retrogrades although indicating delays and setbacks can also suggest unconventional outcomes. In the event of a leave vote any ‘Brexit’ negotiations could be protracted and last years. Using whole sign houses Saturn actually, falls in the 6th house which indicative of a much more difficult situation for the Leave campaign.

For what is meant to be a domestic UK debate there has been a quite exceptional amount of comment by international financial agencies such as the IMF, OECD, G8, and comments by numerous world leaders such as Barack Obama in favour of the UK remaining in the European Union. Its noteable that the 9th house ruler in the opening of poll chart is Jupiter conjunct the North Node demonstrating these powerful corporate interests. Jupiter In Virgo also seems to reflect domestic corporate players such as the Bank of England and CBI which have made the case in favour of the UK remaining versus the risks of leaving the EU. Astrologically, the lot of fortune in Pisces on the 8th again highlights just how central the issue of shared financial resources is within this debate.

The Remain campaign have been relentlessly emphasizing the potential threat to the UK economy, jobs and incomes Brexit could pose outside a large trade block like the EU. Its also been claimed the UK could take years to agree its own Trade agreements and face tariffs putting up costs in the meantime. In contrast the Leave campaign are focusing on the effects of uncontrolled EU immigration, the costs of EU membership and the bureaucratic and undemocratic nature of the EU. There is also an emphasis by the Brexiters on the issue of recovering a perceived loss of national sovereignty in terms of UK government decision making.

Mercury placed in the 11th house by Equal and quadrant houses (or 12th in whole sign) is separating from a square to Jupiter (Lord 9). I interpret this as a slim but decisive majority of the public rejecting the EU and in some instances this could be motivated by concerns over EU migration.

We should also look at the exaltation rulers of the 1st and 7th houses. These are particularly emphasized in contest charts. These are Jupiter and Mars respectively. Jupiter the exaltation ruler of Cancer is in detriment in Virgo and falls in the cadent third by whole sign and Placidus houses. However, it falls in the 2nd house by Equal. It is in a tight conjunction to the North Node.

Mars the exaltation ruler of the Capricorn is placed in the fortunate 5th house by Placidus and Whole sign houses. Its in the angular 4th by Equal. It is strong by essential dignity in its domicile of Scorpio. Again it is retrograde like Saturn!

Interestingly, the Moon forms an antiscia to Mars in this chart. Mars is not only the exaltation ruler of Capricorn but also the bound ruler of the DESC degree. Saturn is also the bound ruler of the ASC of the chart.

Although, since Mars is the MC ruler this could also be interpreted as the government spearheading an aggressive pro-remain campaign

The lot of fortune is placed in the 8th house (equal/quadrant houses) in Pisces disposited by Pisces. This highlights the centrality of financial concerns to both campaigns with Jupiter the exaltation ruler of Cancer and Saturn disposited by Jupiter in the chart. Using whole sign the lot of fortune is placed in the 9th house emphasizing the the focus on the EU and foreign trade. Using derived houses from the lot of Fortune the Moon is placed in the 12th place while Saturn is in the 10h place.

Uranus is squaring the ascendant and descendant angles in the chart. It also conjuncts the Nonagesimal pointing to a potentially dramatic and surprising outcome that will fundamentally impact the UK government.

The heavy Saturn emphasis in this chart supports the interpretation that older (and poorer) voters will be crucial to this result. Polling evidence suggests that while younger voters heavily favour remaining in the EU they are usually less likely to actually vote than older voters. In contrast older voters tend to be more motivated and more likely to actually vote.

Saturn is also traditionally associated with the less wealthy. This supports polling analysis that the lower social classes are much more likely to vote leave than the comfortably off middle or upper class. Recent UK government research shows it is the working lower income group that has been most seriously impacted in employment terms by the influx of workers from the rest of the EU.

However, the retrograde Saturn and Mars give cause for concern.
If Brexit happens it will not be a straighforward process and could be very protracted.

It is going to be very hard for David Cameron to survive a vote to leave. He has stacked his whole political reputation on achieving a remain vote. Sooner or later then this would spark a leadership contest in the Conservative party with Boris Johnson in a very strong position in that scenario.

Nevertheless, Cameron has shown himself to be a real political survivor in the past. It is possible he may try to ride out the internal party storm for a while. The uber Libran Cameron would surely prefer his political legacy to be that of the expert negotiator for Britain rather than simply the Prime Minister whose career ended in ignominious failure after losing a referendum he decided to hold.

In the event of a vote to leave Exit negotiation with the European Union could take many years. Similarly, negotiation on trade deals with other economic blocks such as the USA and China are likely to be very protracted.

A vote to leave the EU would also be fractious for UK political unity. Polls indicate a strong pro-remain majority in Northern Ireland, and Scotland. So a Brexit vote would open up a political divide between England and the other constituent nations of the UK. Most significantly, in Scotland where the fault lines of the independence referendum are still present.

Nicola Sturgeon, the leader of the Scottish National Party, has already threatened to call for another independence referendum in Scotland if there is a vote to leave in England but to remain in Scotland. It seems unlikely, the Conservative led government will grant such a thing in this Parliament but this will only increase tensions between Westminster and the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh.

In contrast should the vote turn out a narrow remain vote the resentments would be the reverse with much of England frustrated that the Celtic countries and London had been decisive in in keeping the country in the EU against the wishes of the majority of English voters.

So weighing up the indicators from this chart we have the following features:

Pro-Leave

-Cardinal signs on angles
-Moon in Aquarius disposited by Saturn (Lord 7)
-Moon placed in 7th house (quadrant/equal houses)
-Moon’s only Ptolemaic aspect during polling day is a sextile to Saturn (Lord 7)
-Significator for Leave campaign (Saturn) in 5th house by quadrant and equal houses
-Mercury in separating square to Jupiter (Lord 9) before polling begins.
-Saturn is 5th house from ASC (quadrant/equal houses)
-Saturn is 11th house from Capricorn (quadrant/equal houses)
-Saturn is bound ruler (Egyptian) of ASC in Cancer
-Mars ruler of MC=government is Rx
-Mars (exaltation ruler of Capricorn) is bound ruler of DESC degree
-Mars (exaltation ruler of Capricorn) forms an antiscia to Moon.
-Derived houses from Lot of Fortune place Saturn in 10th/Moon in 12th
-Uranus square angles and conjunct Nonagesimal

Pro-Remain

-Saturn is Rx in chart
-Saturn in 6th house (whole sign only)
-Saturn is 12th place from Capricorn (whole sign only)
-Mars Exaltation ruler of Capricorn is Rx
-Mars (domicile ruler of MC/government) forms antiscia to Moon

Overall, the testimony of astrological factors in this chart is leads me to conclude a Brexit looks more likely than not. This appears to support what other charts are suggesting to me. I may post up some analysis of these charts later.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:53 am; edited 9 times in total
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Stefan



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Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.

Thanks for posting the EU chart Fleur.
Yes it's a potent chart with a lot of internal difficulties. Which may reflect the constant ongoing process of getting it all together for all members satisfaction. Now the tensions are really hard as the progressed aspects showing. EU have in fact becoming a warzone lately, as the refugee and terror issues seems to be a hard nut to deal with within the Union. And now with the Brexit threat as well. The activation of the Mars-Pluto-Moon energies by progressed MC is telling. (the patterns did start to activate earlier with the activation of Mercury which is also part of the pattern. (using solar arc in RA for the progressed angles).

Another thing more positive for the EU radix chart imo is an angular very strong radix Jupiter trining an angular radix Saturn, speaking volumes of the EU planning and controlled regulations and organisational strength which is required for such a project. This is an interesting feature of the EU chart I Think.


Very interesting insights from Mark. Look forward to hearing about Cameron.


One interesting detail which may be symbolically valid for the Brexit issue is that Sidereal Uranus actuall Ingress into Aries on the very day of the Brexit election.

I use the Krishnamurti Ayanamsha here. And in the afternoon 23 june transiting Uranus goes into Sidereal Aries. Aries is btw a constellation which is associated with UK coincidentaly. Is this symbolically a sign of a change and breaking free from something ?

( It may be added that the transit Ingress of Ketu (S.Node) into sidereal aries did correspond to the former "meat scandal" which also was involving UK. When in 15th january 2013 horse meat was sold in British supermarkets. The very day of the ketu ingress into Aries).
EDITED year of meat scandal is 2013 15 january. Not 1913 as I intitially wrote.


Last edited by Stefan on Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Presuming EU did take into effect at midnight 01 Nov 1993 and the MC is in 2nd degree of taurus- see what is happening to EU and Brussels in the bounds of Saturn (Egyptian) .

Ven=8
Merc=6
Jup=8

1993+22 = 2015 Nov 01 + 5 years of Saturn approx.

Sun in Scorpio is the ruler of Ascendant and that too is directing in bounds of Saturn.

I work on the premise of 1 deg long = 1 year and that suffices for me.

PD
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The traditional astrologer Peter Stockinger wrote an interesting analysis of the Aries Ingress for London earlier this year. As the Aries ingress has a fixed sign rising (Aquarius), it is also valid for the entire year.

Using the methods of Bonatti and other medieval sources Peter Stockinger thinks that the chart is consistent with Britain voting to leave the European Union:

https://starsandstones.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/aries-ingress-of-the-sun-2016-for-uk-and-usa/

Mark
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pipedreamer



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Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, thank you for posting the charts and your contribution; the charts are not as clear to read as I had hoped for such a significant decision but do appear to favour the leaving the EU.
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Fleur



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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That Neptune Uranus conjunction in the 1993 Single European Act chart of the EU, in 18 degrees Capricorn 40 minutes, is currently being transited by both Pluto which stationed to retrograde in April 2016 at 17 degrees Capricorn 29 minutes, and Neptune, as the conjunction's antiscion is 11 degrees Sagittarius 20 minutes so Neptune currently in around 11.5 degrees Pisces is squaring this, and on the day of the Brexit vote transiting Saturn will be around 11.5 degrees Sagittarius.

Solar Arc progressed Ascendant is now about 10 degrees Virgo, so within a few months of one degree applying to square the antiscion of this Neptune Uranus conjunction.

Transiting Phaethon will be about 12 degrees Gemini too on Brexit vote day. So something very powerful is happening to that Uranus Neptune conjunction.
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Stefan



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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well there is A LOT of Saturn influences around 23 June in the EU chart.

1.)
Rx transiting Saturn is conjuncting Secondary progressed Mars.
(0'57' orb precession corrrected transit)

2.)
Transiting Rx Mars is almost stationary squaring EU's radix Saturn.


Astrologically to me it seems quite clear that there is an obvious risk of EU loosing England as a member.
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Fleur



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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:



Astrologically to me it seems quite clear that there is an obvious risk of EU loosing England as a member.


I think there is an obvious risk of the whole EU disintegrating. This isn't just about losing England as a member. I think even Germany will disintegrate into separate states, and Bavaria could join with a separated Austria. These transits are massive, Neptune was about constructing and Pluto is about dissolving.
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Fleur



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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that struck me is how some people are analysing the miniscule transiting sextiles of the exact moment of the vote. That seems more like casting the bones than looking at what is happening in time. Surely this is more about the big slow moving planets that are simply triggered at a particular time? And when you take a snapshot of one moment in time, that doesn't take account of aspects that happened prior to that moment and is simply being triggered?

I don't think that momentous changes happen because for one day transiting Mercury is making a sextile to anything. They happen because a fast moving inner planet is triggering the inevitability of slow moving outer planets.

I often think that about events, that you need to look a the ephemeris to see what the outer planets have been doing in the recent past, and why at a particular moment they are triggered to manifest. I am not sure if this would apply to people's charts, where you would look at what was going on outer planet wise just before somebody was born.

An event is not an entity, it is a transit to something else. I was even thinking that the 1993 EU chart is actually a transit to something, it is not an entity. And the chart for the Brexit vote is a different kind of transit to whatever it was that was being transited in 1993.
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