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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Will the UK leave the EU?
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 182
Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations Mark for winning your bet and thank you for all your hard work and posts. I have learnt a lot.

James alerted me to the Ceres/Eris/Uranus conjunction. I think that turned out to be very important.

I have enjoyed this thread very much. Now there is a Conservative party leadership contest, maybe even a Labour party one too and the US election to grapple with !
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Kent - England

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


I know the atmosphere in this referendum has been unpleasant and people are distrustful of the other side. But blaming the government for the disruption caused by the floods feels like going a tad too far Fleur! I see a legal case brewing against God though....


Mark


I see that it stayed dry in the north of the country where the majority voted leave and the floods were around London where people leaned to remain. Brexiteers might say if God is with us then who is against us Wink

Matthew
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pipedreamer



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The chart for the close of poll was indicative after all; perhaps the lesson is to keep it simple?
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1215
Location: Delhi

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All English towns where I had worked voted to leave. David Cameron failed to tell the voters that yours truly had already left British shores 16 years back Very Happy and there is no need for them to leave now.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4924
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rocko wrote:
Quote:
Likewise I can't be bothered to respond to most of your points.


I actually bothered to respond to your last post point by point. Maybe you should take another look?

Rocko wrote:
Quote:
Because as this thread illustrates just endless digging around missing the main issues.


Skyscript mundane page is a discussion forum Rocko so people are allowed and indeed encouraged to chip in with any observations they like. That is why this forum exists.

But if you look deeper there were several observations here based on solid astrological logic. They might not coincide with your conception of the 'main issues' but that is beside the point.

Rocko wrote:
Quote:
I haven't come across the 1927 Chart. Certainly NOT in the many good Astrology books I have. But as Uranus is hit by the Eclipse and that it is close to the cusp of the 4th House that'd have concerned me.


This time is actually mentioned but not displayed in Nicholas Campion's Book of World Horoscopes. I first got introduced to this chart in an article in the Irish Astrological Association publication from 2000 by the late Maurice McCann. IMHO it is totally underestimated by the UK astrological community who continue to insist the ''UK chart'' is one that includes the whole of Ireland. Its the chart for modern Britain. Not to say that the 1801 chart isn't still very revealing.

Rocko wrote:
Quote:
As I looked thru the charts I kept muttering "it has to be Uranus". A sudden change has to be Uranus related.


Thats just a preconception of yours Rocko. Its not supported by hundreds of years of astrological practice working with eclipses without using outer planets at all. You dont need Uranus for an eclipse to be operative.

Rocko wrote:
Quote:
But my studies of Eclipses suggest a triggering planet is needed or how else can you time when the potential of the Eclipse is re-activated?

An Eclipse lays down potential which is later triggered.


I already replied to you on that point. Several things can activate an eclipse. Charles Carter said that they are often activated by Mars or Sun squares to that point.

Rocko wrote:
Quote:
PS So well done to those that went for BREXIT. Personally, I doubt the techniques used explained it.


A rather churlish response Rocko. Particularly, considering the remarkable stats by astrologers using traditional techniques for this election. Maybe not what you want hear Rocko but facts are facts. Several of us have also got several predictions right. This isn't a one off.

Rocko wrote:
Quote:
From my side I couldn't, and still can't find any other Astrological reason for this BREXIT and I had felt that the very strong energies of Jupiter, Node and Pluto would pull us JUST up in time. I think it nearly did.


Maybe time to review your approach Rocko? That is what I have done in the past if I get a prediction wrong. We should learn from our mistakes.

Rocko wrote:
Quote:
But it was a Judgement Call.


It always is!

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicki wrote:
Quote:
Congratulations Mark for winning your bet and thank you for all your hard work and posts. I have learnt a lot.


Thanks Vicki. Very kind of you. I really enjoyed your contributions here. I am sorry I have not had more time to engage with you more. You have made some fascinating observations. I think we will need to hire you as our fixed stars consultant on the forum! I do hope you stay on board and continue to post here. We badly need some more well informed posters like yourself here.

Vicki wrote:
Quote:
James alerted me to the Ceres/Eris/Uranus conjunction. I think that turned out to be very important.


Yes it was picked up by a few astrologers. I think the Australian astrologer Jessica Adams was the first to highlight this. I dont feel the need to work with asteroids, centaurs, or the new trans Neptunian bodies. But good luck to those that do. I do have more sympathy with Ceres than the other asteroids or centaurs though as at is an inner solar system body that actually looks like a planet rather than a mutated baked potato!

Vicki wrote:
Quote:
I have enjoyed this thread very much
.

Glad to hear that.

Vicki wrote:
Quote:
Now there is a Conservative party leadership contest, maybe even a Labour party one too and the US election to grapple with !


Indeed, we live in interesting times.... I will set up a new thread soon to look at the Conservative party leadership election.

Mark
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4924
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:

Quote:
i have been regularly impressed with your astro skills.. you are an overlooked gem in the astro community!


Gosh James your embarrassing me. Embarassed

It was really nice to get congratulation messages from astrologers both in the UK and from across the world today. And I got an acknowledgement of this from the editor of the UK Astrological Journal so I dont feel exactly ignored. I do need to get a proper blog/website sorted out though as your often ignored these days without that.

James_M wrote:
Quote:
kudos to those others including myself a wee bit (lol) who were either leaning that way, or more firm in their conviction based on the astro... now, it will be interesting to see if it actually happens, or they alter it somehow..


Yes you were definitely on the scent with this one too James. Well done!

A signicant majority of astrologers who made a prediction got this one right. Which I think is a shot in the arm for astrology in general. And the results by traditional astrologers for this election were quite outstanding. Especially, if you look at where the polls and betting odds were as the polls closed last night.

We had the largest turn out for this vote in decades. Much as our politicians might like to ignore this vote they cannot reject a clear democratic mandate like this. Even the EU seem to accept a divorce is now inevitable.

James_M wrote:
Quote:
does this mean boris is the man of the hour? or is it nigel farage? i didn't even look at farages chart!


Farage was the political cheerleader for this referendum but he is not even an MP. His party have just one MP at present. Boris Johnson is assumed to be the front runner as our next PM but there will be a leadership election with results in the early Autumn. There are other people that might have a chance. Theresa May the Home secretary stayed out of the referendum campaign and therefore made no enemies. Still, Johnson is probably on a roll with the party activists for delivering what many of them wanted for decades.

James_M wrote:
Quote:
cameron resigning..........who said pluto square sun was a good thing? lol..


Yes like you I never found that view of Barry Goddard very convincing. To me it just looked like another nail in his coffin with that terrible SR chart, fractious profections and difficult solar arcs.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pipedreamer wrote:
Quote:
The chart for the close of poll was indicative after all; perhaps the lesson is to keep it simple?


Well three modern astrologers worked with this chart. Two concluded a remain vote while the third couldn't decide. So not really a ringing endorsement for the end of poll chart. Its obviously a very useful chart for transits to key natal charts or national charts. It also gives a feel for the general atmosphere. But I remain unconvinced it shows you the winner.

I am a strong advocate of opening of poll charts. Astrology traditionally relies on inceptions or beginnings of things whether a birth, organisation or elected event.

I relied heavily on a traditional approach to the opening of poll chart as a contest chart with the challenger assigned the ASC and the defender the DESC. To me the testimony in that chart strongly revealed a Brexit vote. You can check out my very detailed analysis earlier in this thread. Tania Daniels also worked with this chart using hellenistic astrology and also made a correct prediction.

Its true the modern astrologer Adrian Ross Duncan did use the opening of poll chart and concluded a remain vote. But rather than treating the chart like a contest chart he delineated the houses like an ingress or national chart. Hence he interpreted the 7th house as representing the EU while Tania and I gave it to the Leave campaign. Its possible some political bias influenced Ross Duncan's judgement as he ended his article in the Mountain Astrologer with a plea for all his voters to vote remain in the referendum! I accept we all have our political preconceptions but I think its bad to let them come into our astrological analysis.

Mark.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2710
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks mark,

you put a lot of work into all this and deserve the kudos!

a couple of things, it wasn't that i pointed out the eris/ceres/uranus conjunction to vicki, but that i discussed borin johnsons relocated chart where this combo lands on his relocated midheaven in the 2016 solar return... that was an ingredient i don't recall anyone else discussing, but you might not be the only one to not read ALL of my posts and commentary!!

it wasn't just barry goddard, it was also liz hathaway and a few others - marjorie orr and some others i can't recall) that had a completely different read on t pluto square camerons natal sun then myself and you.. lets face it - i use this data too and am not a dyed in the wool trad astrologer with my Tweedledum jacket on apparently lol..

ps - i sent you and a few othes on skyscript pm's but some folks never read these, it seems - kinda like my posts!
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 182
Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I came to that Eris/Ceres/Uranus conjunction on the eve of the referendum because like Mark I don't really work with asteroids or the trans Neptunian planets so I hadn't noticed it. It was James's mention of it in that relocated SR chart that drew my attention to it in the Opening Poll chart.

I did some work on the fixed stars where this conjunction was located. I've been itching to tell people what I discovered because it seems to me that the whole character of the referendum result seems to be in this conjunction.

These are the exact longitude positions (so far as I can calculate) of the planets involved in that conjunction at 7 am on 23rd June:-

Eris 23 Aries 33

Ceres 23 Aries 54

Uranus 23 Aries 58

This conjunction took place mainly in the "modern" constellation of Fornax the furnace but with one star each in Andromeda and Eridanus. Star positions as follows :-

Star 703 Fornax 23 Aries 30
Star Psi Fornax 23 Aries 38
Star 20868 Fornax 23 Aries 39
Star 157 Andromeda 23 Aries 50
Star 968 Eridanus 23 Aries 55
Star Eta 1 Fornax 24 Aries 01

Note that 968 Eridanus is within 1 minute of Ceres which is in between Eris and Uranus. The constellation Eridanus has the mythology of Phaethon crashing the Sun Chariot catastrophically into the River Eridanus.
Both Eris and Uranus are within a 3 minute orb of Fornax stars, Eta 1 being the highest magnitude and thus a significant star within that constellation. Uranus is applyng to this star!
Fornax is the furnace of chemistry and alchemical transformation. The Andromeda constellation concerns the chained, sacrificed woman. (I have drawn attention elsewhere to this star culminating at 7.02 am )

I worked all this out on the eve of the referendum and then wrote the following in my notebook which I propped up on my desk until the result the next day :-

"Are we to crash and burn in a cataclysmic event with Andromeda needing to be rescued from her chains or will be be transformed alchemically?"

Metaphorical obviously, but this conjunction and where it falls does seem to me to characterise the result of the referendum.
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unique_astrology



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 141

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations on your congratulations Mark. You certainly deserve them.

Some notes regarding the vote.

Simple transit to natal chart. Powerful effect of transiting midpoint to natal chart.

http://www.dominantstar.com/a_eec2.htm

Jan 1, 1958, 00.00.00. AM CET (-01), Brussels, 4E20'00"; 50N50'00"

Asc: 29Vi36; Mc: 29Ge29

Source: "The EEC came into existence at 00.00 hrs on 1 January 1958. " Chart calculated "for the administrative capital, Brussels." Campion, "The Book of World Horoscopes," p. 478.

*** PARANS TO FIXED STARS ***

European Union - Natal Chart
Jan 1 1958, 0:00 am, CET -1:00
Brussels Belgium 50°N50' 004°E20'

MC 089°26'
IC 269°26'


*** PARANS TO FIXED STARS ***

England leaves European Union - Natal Chart
Jun 24 2016, 6:00 am, CEDT -2:00 (Decisive point in time of vote count)
Brussels Belgium 50°N50' 004°E20'

Upper
Saturn 250°21'
Pluto 287°45'

(250°21' + 287°45' = 538°06' / 2 = 269°03' - was at 269°04' at 10 pm, BST, on the 23rd in London)

*** END REPORT ***

Coronation Of Wm I (Not timed) Used by some as chart for England.

Dec 25 1066, 0:00 am, LMT +0:00:36
West Minster England 51°N30' 000°W09'
Geocentric Tropical Zodiac

In the 1066 chart for England Mercury is at 287°23'. Transit Pluto at 10 pm, BST on June 23 was at 287°46'. At 5 am on the 24th it was at 287°45'.
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amelia



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 395
Location: Wales

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brilliant thread Mark. Plus the other summary one with all the techniques listed. Best thing on this mundane forum, ever.

I've also sent you a p.m. (no pun intended)
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Saturnhead



Joined: 22 Jul 2013
Posts: 512

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the best ever threads on skyscript.

Great work, Mark. Thumbs up
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought some of you might be interested in this map showing how the UK voted in the EU referendum by constituent country and English region.


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alex62



Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 70
Location: UK , Croatia

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


Thanks for joining our discussion Alex. So if I understand you correctly your point is that in comparison to 1993 when Britain signed the Maastricht Treaty bringing the Single European Act into being the 1801 chart doesn't show the kind of activity you would be expecting? Are you judging that by just transits or other predictive tools like solar returns, progressions, solar arcs, profections etc? I should say I dont exclusively rely on the 1801 chart for the UK or indeed national charts full change. The Aries ingress for London this year is quite dramatic with Mars on the MC. Still if you are correct on the outcome that is a useful insight to research further.


Thanks Mark
I always have one main or initial chart like the natal chart. Other chart are used for comparison with the main chart

It basically transits in a given period, when it was some changes.

On this topic is mentioned a lot of maps and data, but still not enough for me, because I do not know enough history UK, the political situation, all the important events, etc.

With that I was deprived of some information that could possibly give a better picture, and help to precisely decipher the astrological symbols.

Mark wrote:

A lot of astrologers say this. But I question this. First David Cameron has been having a torrid year. Any astrology that suggests his life is going fine this year is a bit suspicious. I wrote a very extensive piece here explaining why Cameron had such a bad solar return chart this year. And using profections there is considerable conflict and opposition indicated this year. Solar arcs pick that up too. And looking at this from a modern perspective Cameron is struggling with a Pluto square. So I cant agree there are no 'bad signs' in his chart. Whether all that is enough that he will lose this referendum is the disputed question though.


Based on Pl transit to Cameron So I predicted his victory in the elections. Again based on events in his history. This transit is still going on and that's why I said "David Cameron does not have at the moment any signs of bad period or losing his position"

I still think it will remain PM Very Happy

Mark wrote:

Quite a few astrologers think there is enough going on in that chart to suggest a Brexit. But are they right? We will know soon enough if your view is vindicated!

Anyway, I appreciate your comments and respect your view. I hope you join in some more discussions here.

Mark


Yes, this chart indicates the most changes. However it must be confirmed by the main chart (natal chart)
Natal chart allows changes in but smaller changes compared to in 1993.

In fact I did not even predicted the result of the referendum already the current situation based on UK chart in 1801

Since the spring of next year can expect some significant changes in the UK. This can be but not have to be caused by the current events (Brexit).

Thank you once again Mark

sorry for my english...
Alex
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