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Will the UK leave the EU?
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2959
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex62 wrote:

Based on Pl transit to Cameron So I predicted his victory in the elections. Again based on events in his history. This transit is still going on and that's why I said "David Cameron does not have at the moment any signs of bad period or losing his position"

I still think it will remain PM Very Happy

Alex


hi alex! i am not singling you out here, but using it as an opening to talk about how different astrologers use different systems or techniques to arrive at different conclusions.. i too thought cameron would be re-elected, but i focused on the nodal axis going over his venus/libra rising.. for me, it didn't have to do with the pluto transit! both of us are stuck with the thought it could have been either! which is it? does any astrologer know?

this is one argument for why many outside the world of astrology will look at the myriad options astrologers have to come to a conclusion and think there is no fool proof system to come to a conclusion.. and, frankly - i think they would be right!!

it is a bit the same here with this brexit vote... breaking it down into modern, traditional, or eclectic astrological approaches does as much to muddy the waters as it does to clarify anything, but those that like their walls of separation will continue to use them... what was the technique that was used to predict the outcome one way or the other? there were countless techniques and approaches!

i go back to a comment that fleur made on page 2 -

Fleur wrote:
One thing that struck me is how some people are analysing the miniscule transiting sextiles of the exact moment of the vote. That seems more like casting the bones than looking at what is happening in time. Surely this is more about the big slow moving planets that are simply triggered at a particular time? And when you take a snapshot of one moment in time, that doesn't take account of aspects that happened prior to that moment and is simply being triggered?
....
An event is not an entity, it is a transit to something else. I was even thinking that the 1993 EU chart is actually a transit to something, it is not an entity. And the chart for the Brexit vote is a different kind of transit to whatever it was that was being transited in 1993.


mark tried to clarify for fleur the idea of outer planet transits not being given the same focus in traditional astrology as modern astrology.. fine.. however regardless of the approach one uses - there is a difference looking at the astrology with a microscope verses using a telescope.. everyone is going to examine the data in their own way and there is a lot of ways to do this too! while one approach might not make sense to one person, it makes a lot of sense to another!

i continue to see astrology as a type of art form.. the interpretations are very individual.. how we see the astrology has a lot of subjectivity built into it..

and finally - a vote that is so close doesn't have the sharp outlines given a yes or no - winner take all - that it looks like it has after the fact! 52 to 48 percent is still quite close...
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alex62



Joined: 26 Aug 2014
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Location: UK , Cardiff

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
alex62 wrote:

Based on Pl transit to Cameron So I predicted his victory in the elections. Again based on events in his history. This transit is still going on and that's why I said "David Cameron does not have at the moment any signs of bad period or losing his position"

I still think it will remain PM Very Happy

Alex


hi alex! i am not singling you out here, but using it as an opening to talk about how different astrologers use different systems or techniques to arrive at different conclusions.. i too thought cameron would be re-elected, but i focused on the nodal axis going over his venus/libra rising.. for me, it didn't have to do with the pluto transit! both of us are stuck with the thought it could have been either! which is it? does any astrologer know?

this is one argument for why many outside the world of astrology will look at the myriad options astrologers have to come to a conclusion and think there is no fool proof system to come to a conclusion.. and, frankly - i think they would be right!!

it is a bit the same here with this brexit vote... breaking it down into modern, traditional, or eclectic astrological approaches does as much to muddy the waters as it does to clarify anything, but those that like their walls of separation will continue to use them... what was the technique that was used to predict the outcome one way or the other? there were countless techniques and approaches!


I understand what you mean ... but not a problem in the astrological techniques ...

The essence is in check. This is my way of working. In this case with Cameron I was referred to the period when the previous time had the same aspect.

I researched through his biography period when the last time was that aspect. In the previous aspect had a very successful period in school. This means that the current period is also successful for him. Especially because it is already, with weaker aspects, became prime minister. Now he does not need to be good aspects to keep the position of prime minister and he has during elections the best aspects until now and that is why it swept competition in elections.

So the point is to test how person react to a particular aspect into the past.
This is the only way to correct prognosis, but it should be sufficiently accurate data...

sorry for my English

Alex
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4966
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex62 wrote:
Quote:
On this topic is mentioned a lot of maps and data, but still not enough for me, because I do not know enough history UK, the political situation, all the important events, etc.

With that I was deprived of some information that could possibly give a better picture, and help to precisely decipher the astrological symbols.


Thanks Alex,

Its good you raise these points as I can sometimes forget people come here from very different cultures. And I do understand its all the more difficult if English is not your first language.

I dont think it is probably realistic of me to seek to fill in all the historical , social, economic, and political context of issues on this forum. But i do concede it is more difficult to discuss the political astrology of a country without that kind of background.

The best recommendation I can make in terms of finding out more about the astrology of various countries is to buy a copy of Nicholas Campion's Book of World Horoscopes. This is pretty much a Bible for political astrologers and a book that will reward your investment over and over again. I dont know if this book has been translated into Serbo-Croat or not.

However, for the the traditional technique of the using ingress charts I suggest you make a start with this article by Deborah Houlding:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ingresses.html

Alex62 wrote:
Quote:
Based on Pl transit to Cameron So I predicted his victory in the elections. Again based on events in his history. This transit is still going on and that's why I said "David Cameron does not have at the moment any signs of bad period or losing his position"


Well I wouldn't feel bad about that assessment Alex. A lot of very experienced astrologers came to exactly the same conclusion that David Cameron would not lose the referendum because his chart looked too strong. For example Marjorie commented earlier this year:

Quote:
''....all in all, I’d doubt the UK would leave – from the astrology I mean. Cameron’s charts look too chipper to fail at the moment.''


If a highly experienced political astrologer like Marjorie Orr can go astray I dont think you should be so hard on yourself Alex.


Mark
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 183
Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think Alex does very well with English not being his first language.

I find it very difficult to distinguish the good from the bad in astrology. Squares and oppositions for instance often seem to bring success. I think it was particularly hard to assess David Cameron's position after he won a general election only last year. How to see him losing after a short space of time?

In my "post mortem" of this referendum I came to the conclusion that with this problem in mind I needed to have focussed very closely on the day in question rather than look at the overall trends for this year in Cameron's chart.

I charted a lunar return for both Johnson and Cameron the day before the referendum (should have done it sooner) directed their planets to the 23rd and came up with what I regarded as more favourable directions for Johnson with several square directions for Cameron. However I still couldn't trust myself to make a prediction for Johnson/Leave to win because the squares could still mean success perhaps.

What was particularly revealing though were the profections a la Vettius Valens in my Janus software for the 2 1/2 days around the referendum. Johnson's Pars Hyleg conjoin Part of Fortune "gave" to his MC conjoining North node. Cameron's House 10 gave to House 12, his Mc gave to Pluto conjoining Uranus and his House 8 gave to House 10.
Now I do find these profections compelling evidence.

Add this to the fixed star influences I saw in the Opening Poll chart I feel I should have been able to predict for the Leave campaign even though I have little competence in either horary astrology or ingress charts ! Must put that right!

Good experience and I shall use these methods in the future but I foresee
Very Happy a problem already with the Conservative leadership contest. There is no birth time given for Theresa May!
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex62 wrote:


I researched through his biography period when the last time was that aspect. In the previous aspect had a very successful period in school. This means that the current period is also successful for him.

So the point is to test how person react to a particular aspect into the past.
This is the only way to correct prognosis, but it should be sufficiently accurate data...

sorry for my English

Alex


hi alex, thanks for your comments here! i agree with vicki - your english seems very good!

i am getting off track of the topic here and am responsible for bringing this up, so this will be my last comment on a topic we could start up on another thread!

i responded to you in a similar and quick manner by also referencing ''an aspect'' nodal axis to his venus/ascendant).. this is really only a small part of it and of how i analyze any chart or projection on an outcome of an event.. ''transits'' are treated by some astrologers as the main and primary tool for use in predicting outcomes.. i think this is a mistake myself! when judging camerons chart there are a number of approaches that can and ought to be taken.. just to name a few - solar returns, solar arc directions, secondary progressions, profections, relocation and etc. etc... while i think it's a great idea to study past events to see how they appear based on a previous transit, one will have to also ignore or include these other tools that many astrologers use in order to better assess an outcome on a transit too!

in the case of the transit of pluto square camerons sun, what was it you looked at in his past? the conjunction, or? he has only had the conjunction, 45, or 60 prior to this square transit to his sun.. as vicki also wonders and which i am going to respond to - i think the relationship in the chart itself between the planets involved has bearing on how a transit might unfold. but, one still needs to consider the other predictive tools that have been typically used to get a better read on an outcome.. relying only on transits is a recipe for disaster as i see it!

lloyd cope http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersmemorial/cope.html first introduced me to the idea of considering the natal set up between planets as having a say on how a transit, direction and etc. etc. might unfold.. if you want to continue this conversation - pm me, or start a new thread!!! cheers james
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 183
Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James mentioned microscope versus telescope in astrology. Well a microscope was certainly needed regarding the events surrounding Boris Johnson yesterday!

How to discern the astrologcial indications of "winning" the referendum last week and losing his chance to run for the leadership of the conservative party yesterday only one week later?

Well I looked again at his lunar return. On the day of the referendum there were directions ( by one degree method) which made favourable aspects to the Opening Poll chart.
However for yesterday the directions were very different. His directed Lunar Return conjoining Saturn reached that Uranus / Eris / Ceres conjunction in his Lunar Return 12th and as I indicated in an earlier post the fixed stars associated with this conjunction indicate a crash and burn event.

Also some of the profections for the five hour period from 5 am on the 30th June to 10 am 30th June (he learned of Gove's "assassination" at 8.53 am) were as follows:-

Pars Hyleg conjoin Part of Fortune gives to South node.
Saturn gives to Pars Hyleg conjoin Part of Fortune
House 12 gives to House 11
House 6 to House 5

So I think we need both a microscope and a telescope. For instance I employ this technique with fixed stars. I look at the bigger picture with the brightest stars listed in Ptolemy's time and then zoom in to look at conjunctions with more minor unnamed stars and allow only a 1 - 3 minute orb. Many of these minor stars have only recently been discovered and are located often in "modern constellations" which have turned out to have great significance in the delineation of a chart. However I'm going off topic here .....!
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi vicki,

that is interesting! thanks for sharing.. i don't follow it all, so this news on boris is interesting..

i am curious to know how you direct the lunar return.. do you have a biwheel chart that you can show it's use in relation to boris johnson? maybe you'd like to start a thread on boris? thanks..
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
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Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James

I don't use a biwheel. I just look at the lunar return chart , treat every house as 2 1/2 days.(I realise there are about 29 days in a lunar month so there's a slight discrepancy.) I direct the Moon according to how many days the event is away so moving it 60 degrees will be equivalent to 5 days (i.e. 2 houses).

It's symbolic arc direction 1 degree method which I use all the time (rather than Solar Arc). I have to spend so much time lying down due to my illness that I memorise charts and delineate them and use symbolic arc directions in my head. I have a photographic memory which comes in useful in my situation! I have quite a number of charts in my memory bank!

I would have liked to display the lunar chart here but I haven't learnt how to do that yet. I will have to set my mind to it when I'm feeling a bit better which is why I would prefer not to start a thread on Boris, not feeling up to it. I also don't think I've much more to say about Boris except to say that we should never under estimate an Orion fighter such as him!

Thanks for your interest. I'll work on the images thing!
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks vicki! i will pm you a response.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4966
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote
Quote:
it is a bit the same here with this brexit vote... breaking it down into modern, traditional, or eclectic astrological approaches does as much to muddy the waters as it does to clarify anything, but those that like their walls of separation will continue to use them... what was the technique that was used to predict the outcome one way or the other? there were countless techniques and approaches!


Heh James! I would really prefer it if you didn’t bury a comment that is quite obviously aimed at me in a supposed reply to Alex. If you want to make a criticism that is fair enough but please be straightforward about it. I put together that list of mundane predictions on the referendum as a basic piece of research to refute the refrain I have put up with on this forum since I became moderator in 2010 that mundane astrology can only do 20/20 commentary after the event rather than prediction. I hope I have put that myth to bed! But its obviously no academic dissertation on the subject.

I am perfectly aware that astrologers use a variety of predictive techniques. That is why I am contributing to an article in the next issue of the UK Astrological Journal which will give an overview on the referendum focusing on precisely that topic.

James_M wrote:
Quote:
i continue to see astrology as a type of art form.. the interpretations are very individual.. how we see the astrology has a lot of subjectivity built into it..


Well of course traditionally astrology is known as an art and science. And some older sources refer to the astrologer as the artist. But where is the balance struck? If we go with your view then all techniques are subjective and therefore ultimately irrelevant. In which case it really makes no difference what we do since it all comes down to the individual. This reminds me a lot of Geoffrey Cornelius and his divinatory view of the moment of astrology. Its more about the quality of the astrologer. At the other extreme is the view that some approaches to astrology are objectively more accurate than others in astrology. This spurs research projects, statistics etc. I will not deny I think the first view has some validity. Yet as an astrologer we all resonate will certain ideas and necessarily reject others. For example choice of zodiac, house system, rulership system, and the predictive tools we utilise. So are these differences just like the paints selected by an artist or are some objectively better tools at our disposal?Therein lies the question without any ready answers I fear…

James_M wrote:
Quote:
and finally - a vote that is so close doesn't have the sharp outlines given a yes or no - winner take all - that it looks like it has after the fact! 52 to 48 percent is still quite close...


However, close one side did win. Look at your own Quebec referendum in 1995. That was in fact far closer since the Canadian government only won by a mere 1% yet Canada moved on as one country. I think some techniques are easier to delineate than others in this way. Horary or an opening poll chart have clear significators for each camp. So does an Aries ingress chart although that is less focused on such a contest explicitly. On the other hand I think natal charts are harder to reduce to such criteria.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


Heh James! I would really prefer it if you didn’t bury a comment that is quite obviously aimed at me in a supposed reply to Alex. If you want to make a criticism that is fair enough but please be straightforward about it.


i didn't think it was aimed at you, but more a comment i felt like addressing generally.. i happened to be motivated by alex's post, but obviously wandered - like a planet, lol - which i am prone to do.. straight forward enough for you?

Mark wrote:

If we go with your view then all techniques are subjective and therefore ultimately irrelevant.


well, i never said that and i would never say that... it is only those folks who are so attached to an objective one only who would likely make a comment like that! i think all views are quite relevant, regardless if they are viewed as subjective or not. however, this is like electrical code or something - some folks work towards defining ''astrologers code'' and it must conform to certain ''objective''( there's that word again) standards or it doesn't pass their bar forgetting to realize there are other ways of arriving at conclusions, then only the standard ones - or to use the astrology manual code words here - traditional or modern ones..


Mark wrote:

However, close one side did win.

Mark


true enough, and i did and do recognize that. however i can't shake the impression of what appears as some cocky attitudes about those who '''got it right'' or that someone used a particular system that must obviously be brilliant when in the margin here is extremely close.. or that it must be presented in some dogmatic format that is considered acceptable or not by you - there - that is a statement directed right at you.. but then there is the matter of deadlines for important astrological magazines and etc to keep up with!
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicki wrote:
Quote:
What was particularly revealing though were the profections a la Vettius Valens in my Janus software for the 2 1/2 days around the referendum. Johnson's Pars Hyleg conjoin Part of Fortune "gave" to his MC conjoining North node. Cameron's House 10 gave to House 12, his Mc gave to Pluto conjoining Uranus and his House 8 gave to House 10.
Now I do find these profections compelling evidence.


I couldn't agree more about the power of profections! I have been advocating them here for some years. Combined with solar returns I actually used them as a key technique to predict the outcome of the Scottish referendum in 2014. They also helped with working out the outcome of last years British General election. And the EU referendum was no exception. Profections rock!

Although i have written about Johnson's profections elsewhere and indeed even gave a talk on profections last month where I mentioned Johnson I should share my own reasons why I thought Johnson was favoured for the referendum at least.

Johnson entered a 5th house profectional year on his birthday just a few days before the referendum with Aquarius his profected ASC sign. This made Saturn Johnson's LoY. While Saturn had previously been his LoY too this year was different. Firstly, in the Aries and Cancer ingress Aquarius was the ASC sign and Saturn the UK LoY. So Johnson's 5th house/Aquarius profection brought him into harmony with a much larger cycle and it could be said he helped to personally channel this astrological influence in the country.

As I have stated previously in the forum the opposite was true for David Cameron. The Aquarian focus of the ingress charts were in opposition to both David Cameron's Loy Mars and his Moon in Leo.

The Moon during the day of the referendim was in Aquarius too. This put the referendum Moon in Johnson's annual first profectional house. Again a sign of harmony. In contrast the Aquarian Moon was in the opposing the sign to Cameron's LOY & Moon.

Saturn Johnson's LoY was Rx but it was applying to a sextile of his ASC.

Boris Johnson's continuous profections were actually quite stellar on referendum day. His profected Sun was trine his natal sun, his profected moon was trine his natal Moon. His profected ASC was trine his natal ASC and his profected ASC was conjunct his Lot of Fortune. One would almost think that date had been selected for Johnson.

So why has it all gone pear shaped in his leadership race? Time to look at that in a new thread I think. This one has got incredibly long and in practical terms too long to follow. I would rather not drift into new topics here.

Mark
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alex62



Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 90
Location: UK , Cardiff

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


Alex62 wrote:
Quote:
Based on Pl transit to Cameron So I predicted his victory in the elections. Again based on events in his history. This transit is still going on and that's why I said "David Cameron does not have at the moment any signs of bad period or losing his position"


Well I wouldn't feel bad about that assessment Alex. A lot of very experienced astrologers came to exactly the same conclusion that David Cameron would not lose the referendum because his chart looked too strong. For example Marjorie commented earlier this year:

Quote:
''....all in all, I’d doubt the UK would leave – from the astrology I mean. Cameron’s charts look too chipper to fail at the moment.''


If a highly experienced political astrologer like Marjorie Orr can go astray I dont think you should be so hard on yourself Alex.


Mark


Thank you for your advice Mark...


I'm not hard on myself, but considering that the Cameron his position perceived as its own mission, should I leave the space that Cameron can their own will leave their own mission. Because this is his horoscope allows the possibility, if happen the circumstances under which can not accomplish the mission in a manner that he was imagined.

But we will see how the situation will unfold in the coming months given that again has good aspects as in the previous elections ... will it result in giving up or will revise its own mission and may remain in position PM

Alex
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alex62



Joined: 26 Aug 2014
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Location: UK , Cardiff

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
... while i think it's a great idea to study past events to see how they appear based on a previous transit, one will have to also ignore or include these other tools that many astrologers use in order to better assess an outcome on a transit too!

in the case of the transit of pluto square camerons sun, what was it you looked at in his past? the conjunction, or? he has only had the conjunction, 45, or 60 prior to this square transit to his sun.. as vicki also wonders and which i am going to respond to - i think the relationship in the chart itself between the planets involved has bearing on how a transit might unfold. but, one still needs to consider the other predictive tools that have been typically used to get a better read on an outcome.. relying only on transits is a recipe for disaster as i see it!
cheers james


I watched the previous conjunction

Monitoring of past events is nothing new in astrology. More and more astrologer has a thus approach because it gives more comprehensive insight.

  At the same time knowing these previous events allows the comparison whether a future event may be stronger or weaker in relation to an event in the past.

Narrows the meaning of the symbol, because the reference to the past knows exactly what kind of character of the event can be ...

Easier to predict the positive or negative direction of events, etc., etc.

  ... but as you said, this is a different theme

Alex
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alex62



Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 90
Location: UK , Cardiff

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicki wrote:
I also think Alex does very well with English not being his first language.

I find it very difficult to distinguish the good from the bad in astrology. Squares and oppositions for instance often seem to bring success. I think it was particularly hard to assess David Cameron's position after he won a general election only last year. How to see him losing after a short space of time?...



Thank You Vicki...

In astrology, does not exist good or bad.
For example Ju is essentially an expansion ... without positive
or negative sign

Will it be positive or negative depends on several factors

1st Context of life will show whether it will be positive or negative

2nd Natal planet positions, what aspects has a and with which the planets has a aspect

3 rd Previous transits in history also indicate a positive or negative sign

corny example

For example woman in relationship with a man, women now have transit Ju 120 natal Mo

  This aspect means that the woman of increased emotional needs.
( among other things )

If the partner fulfills the woman's increased emotional needs she will be happy, if not fulfills, woman will be dissatisfied.

This is the context of life. Without knowing the context of life is difficult to identify whether something will be positive or negative

But this is also another theme

Alex
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