http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016 ... -of-murder

Born 23rd December 1976, St Petersburg/Leningrad

Murdered 30th August 2015

The news story about her murder just made me feel so angry and sad. What kind of malignant narcissist could want to suffocate her beautiful energy?

He so perfectly displays in exaggerated form many of the traits of extreme narcissists, even his "poor little me" defence, where he shows no repentance or even real recognition that he harmed her, when he had made her life hell for a long time and all she wanted was to get away from him.

I wondered what it is in her chart that made her go anywhere near somebody like that?

Notice that her Sun is a 45 degree semisquare from her Venus and 135 sesquiquadrate from her Saturn/IsisTranspluto conjunction.

No time of birth known.

what is the basis for the 4am time? is that DD data from astrotheme? i see you state - time unknown. thanks.. it is very difficult to get much off a date only.. i note saturn in the solar 8th house of leo with mars in the 12th - sag...
on aug 30 2015 - transit mars/venus conjunction in leo would be conjunct natal saturn.. this is a love gone wrong murder?

that is a natal 135 between saturn and sun too.. some folks think the 8th has to do with death... i will repeat myself - solar houses are vastly under appreciated by astrologers.. not sure why..

james_m wrote:what is the basis for the 4am time?

Statistically most babies are born in the early hours of the morning. Maybe to do with hormone levels. I prefer to use 4am to a noon chart for unknown times of birth.

I have never looked at Solar houses; what you say is interesting, I suppose you mean put the Sun's degree exactly as the Ascendant?

yes regarding how to use solar houses..

james_m wrote:what is the basis for the 4am time? is that DD data from astrotheme? i see you state - time unknown. thanks.. it is very difficult to get much off a date only.. i note saturn in the solar 8th house of leo with mars in the 12th - sag...
on aug 30 2015 - transit mars/venus conjunction in leo would be conjunct natal saturn.. this is a love gone wrong murder?

that is a natal 135 between saturn and sun too.. some folks think the 8th has to do with death... i will repeat myself - solar houses are vastly under appreciated by astrologers.. not sure why..

It is great that every time I learn from reading your posts here! I have read in medieval sources that the sun is the husband significator in a woman's chart so Saturn in the 8th house from the husband is ominous sign. Saturn is also the dispositor of the sun. But wouldn't that be reception? Sun and saturn in each other's house which mitigates evil ?

Fleur wrote:

Statistically most babies are born in the early hours of the morning. Maybe to do with hormone levels. I prefer to use 4am to a noon chart for unknown times of birth.

This may be a well entrenched myth. Actually, the only solid statistical research I have seen on this comes from the US and there at least most babies seem to be born between 8.00am and 12:00 Noon.

http://www.today.com/health/are-more-ba ... led-t20086

Mark

Mark wrote:Fleur wrote:

Statistically most babies are born in the early hours of the morning. Maybe to do with hormone levels. I prefer to use 4am to a noon chart for unknown times of birth.

This may be a well entrenched myth. Actually, the only solid statistical research I have seen on this comes from the US and there at least most babies seem to be born between 8.00am and 12:00 Noon.

http://www.today.com/health/are-more-ba ... led-t20086

Mark

From what I have heard, in the US there is a lot of unnecessary medical intervention in birth, and I wonder how many of these 8am to noon births are induced just to arrive at a convenient time for medical staff? Or even how many are Caesareans? I am not sure this would have happened in Russia decades ago. I think non-induced births would peak around 3am to 4am.

Whether astrologers treat induced and Caesarean births as valid birth times is a whole other question.

Hsn1983 wrote: It is great that every time I learn from reading your posts here! I have read in medieval sources that the sun is the husband significator in a woman's chart so Saturn in the 8th house from the husband is ominous sign. Saturn is also the dispositor of the sun. But wouldn't that be reception? Sun and saturn in each other's house which mitigates evil ?

thanks for the kind words here! i am just seeing your post now.. it is purely conjecture on my part, but i do believe solar houses are overlooked and that a lot of info can be gotten from them. as for the mutual reception of sun and saturn - yes that is the case, but what might apply in horary doesn't necessarily apply in natal chart reading.. i don't think the difficulty associated with saturn in leo is mitigated by a sun in capricorn.. we really need the birthtime to understand how it all goes together..

Fleur wrote:

From what I have heard, in the US there is a lot of unnecessary medical intervention in birth, and I wonder how many of these 8am to noon births are induced just to arrive at a convenient time for medical staff? Or even how many are Caesareans?

I actually agree with you on that. I suspect the American statistics are skewed towards Caesarean/induced births nowadays. Its becoming more common in other western countries too.

Fleur wrote:

I am not sure this would have happened in Russia decades ago.

Your probably right on that point too.

Fleur wrote:

I think non-induced births would peak around 3am to 4am.

That might well be true but I still have serious reservations about what you are doing astrologically.

First off you haven't provided any statistics on what proportion of births were located in the this 4 hour period (prior to induced births being common). This four hour segment represents 1/6th or around 17% of a 24 hour day.

Still, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and accept there might well be a slight tendency towards births in this 4 hour period. But even though it might be statistically significant it will not be that dramatically different. Lets assume its up to 20% of births in a day. You still have the other 80% of births in a day to factor in.

Your approach is weighting the average timing for untimed charts far too much to an early AM average.

One practical problem is that the Moon often changes sign during the day. If I got a chart without timing and the Moon changed sign at say 6AM the statistics would heavily favour the later Moon sign. Using your approach you are more likely to go seriously astray and come up with the wrong Moon sign more often than not.

Natalia Strelchenko is actually a good example of my point. The Moon moved in Aquarius at 07.49AM that day. So the Moon is in Aquarius for two thirds of that day. The statistical odds are that she is Moon in Aquarius not Capricorn. Although if I was seriously working on this chart I would need to test that out to satisfy myself of that. Trying to establish the correct Moon sign in such untimed charts is a critical issue which assists rectification.

If you look at other astrologers there are generally two approaches to untimed charts.

a) A Sunrise chart timed for Sunrise on the ASC. This way all the houses derive from the Sun.
b) A Noon chart. This is a 50/50 split of the hours of the day.

James proposed the former approach. This has the distinct advantage that you can still derive useful information from Solar houses using equal or whole sign houses. Actually, everyone has encountered this approach in a more basic way as it is the basis Sun sign horoscopes are done. Even with timed charts some Ancient Greek and Indian astrologers derived charts in this way. Its a useful exercise to try out in your own chart if you haven't explored it. Especially, if you were born in the daytime. For night birth people I would prefer lunar houses derived from the Moon. But as the Moon moves so fast its not suitable for untimed charts.

With a Noon chart an alternative to going for 12:00 noon in clock time is to put the Sun on the MC ie local solar noon. For example, the famous 1066 chart for England is usually presented for 12:00 noon using modern clock time. However, as we dont know the exact time of the coronation of William the Conqueror it seems logical to go for a chart with the Sun on the MC. This has a symbolic significance.

I notice you have a personal tendency to post a lot of untimed charts for discussion on Skyscript. Unless you are going to offer rectification of these charts you learn a good deal less from such charts which lack timed angles. There are lots of verified charts for killers or their victims with AA data. That seems a much more productive way to study the subject without unnecessary guesswork and speculation.

Fleur wrote:

Whether astrologers treat induced and Caesarean births as valid birth times is a whole other question.

Indeed. Gauquelin's research suggested the famous 'Mars effect' disappeared with induced births. But I dont know of any astrologers that worry about this or probe their clients about this. I know I dont. Good issue for the philosophy forum though.

Mark

Mark, I am considering using James' idea of using the Sun's position as Ascendant, or as you say maybe as Midheaven. I don't find the charts that Astrodienst does for without a birth time clear to look at, and many astrologers seem to use 00 hours, the very start of the day, which doesn't seem the best way to look at the chart either. Noon charts do give a midpoint of the day.

Most of the time charts I look at do not have a birth time. And as you say, there is a doubt about the validity of birth times for induced or Caesarean births. I am curious about looking at the charts for a lot of stories in the news, and still want to find out even if I don't have a birth time, which purveyors of news or Wikipedia don't consider essential information.

Astro data bank is fantastic for collecting birth times and grading them according to trustworthiness. Famous cases have often been already researched by them, and they have a wonderful collection of data by Edwin Steinbrecher, among other collections. I always do a google search to check if they already have the chart before resorting to a guess.