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Conditional Validity of VImshottari
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Pier



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 48

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 11:08 pm    Post subject: Conditional Validity of VImshottari Reply with quote

This might be of interest to anyone using VImshottari Dasa,

I am studying the Lomasha Samhita material (the extant parts anyway) and to my surprise I discovered a surprising tidbit. The translator points out that Lomasha Samhita presents a condition to VImshottari. Actually he presents two of them. Here they are verbatim, as he is comparing the Parasara (BPHS) and Lomasha S (LS) texts:

"There are some conflicts between the two texts at some places as well. For example in the case of Vimshottari dasha Lomasha Samhita recommends that is should be used if lagna is in the hora of Sun in the dark fortnight or in the hora of Moon in the bright fortnight (LS shlokas 9.112 onwards). BPHS does not mention any such restriction. The description of the Vimshottari dasha is also slightly different from that found in BPHS since according to LS one can count from either Ardra or Krittika depending upon other factors. " (Transl. Veneet Kumar)

Then the editor to that translation adds the following, which may surprise you as it did me. I append it next, without the Sanskrit which I am unable to paste intact in the forum.

" Editor Chandrashekhar’s Comments: As a matter of fact BPHS does mention the fact of Vimshottari having to be used when birth is in the hora of Sun is in dark fortnight or hora of Chandra in bright fortnight thus:

saiñä kåñëe'rkahoräyäà candrahorägate site| dahanätsvarkñaparyantaà gaëayennavabhirharet ||
However the variation of counting from Ardra as indicated in LS, when such is not the case, does not appear in BPHS. "

In both my copies of the BPHS, in English from G.S.Kapoor and from G Sharma, neither of these subtelties appear, or neither are translated, and I dont read Sanskrit. So I have to rely on Chandrashekhar.

(this reminds me of KN Rao's comment that our existing versions (in English) of Parasara and even Jaimini are mangled.)

But this is quite an interesting information, because according to LS, VImshottari becomes a conditional Dasa, a counterpart, or complement to ShodSottari Dasha in fact. Shodsottari Dasha applies to charts with the Krishna Paksha (waning moon) in hora of the moon. OR in Sun's hora in waxing moon.

If LS is right, it seems half the charts shouldnt be done with Vimshottari.

Pierre T.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Conditional Validity of VImshottari Reply with quote

Pier wrote:
saiñä kåñëe'rkahoräyäà candrahorägate site| dahanätsvarkñaparyantaà gaëayennavabhirharet ||

Using the Balaram font? Smile Here is the Sanskrit in Unicode (Devanagari and transliteration):

सैषा कृष्णे ऽर्कहोरायां चन्द्रहोरागते सिते । दहनात्स्वर्क्षपर्यन्तं गणयेन्नवभिर्हरेत् ॥

saiṣā kṛṣṇe ’rkahorāyāṃ candrahorāgate site | dahanāt svarkṣaparyantaṃ gaṇayen navabhir haret ||
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Conditional Validity of VImshottari Reply with quote

Pier wrote:
This might be of interest to anyone using VImshottari Dasa,

I am studying the Lomasha Samhita material (the extant parts anyway) and to my surprise I discovered a surprising tidbit. The translator points out that Lomasha Samhita presents a condition to VImshottari. Actually he presents two of them. Here they are verbatim, as he is comparing the Parasara (BPHS) and Lomasha S (LS) texts:

"There are some conflicts between the two texts at some places as well. For example in the case of Vimshottari dasha Lomasha Samhita recommends that is should be used if lagna is in the hora of Sun in the dark fortnight or in the hora of Moon in the bright fortnight (LS shlokas 9.112 onwards). BPHS does not mention any such restriction. The description of the Vimshottari dasha is also slightly different from that found in BPHS since according to LS one can count from either Ardra or Krittika depending upon other factors. " (Transl. Veneet Kumar)

Then the editor to that translation adds the following, which may surprise you as it did me. I append it next, without the Sanskrit which I am unable to paste intact in the forum.

" Editor Chandrashekhar’s Comments: As a matter of fact BPHS does mention the fact of Vimshottari having to be used when birth is in the hora of Sun is in dark fortnight or hora of Chandra in bright fortnight thus:

saiñä kåñëe'rkahoräyäà candrahorägate site| dahanätsvarkñaparyantaà gaëayennavabhirharet ||
However the variation of counting from Ardra as indicated in LS, when such is not the case, does not appear in BPHS. "

In both my copies of the BPHS, in English from G.S.Kapoor and from G Sharma, neither of these subtelties appear, or neither are translated, and I dont read Sanskrit. So I have to rely on Chandrashekhar.

(this reminds me of KN Rao's comment that our existing versions (in English) of Parasara and even Jaimini are mangled.)

But this is quite an interesting information, because according to LS, VImshottari becomes a conditional Dasa, a counterpart, or complement to ShodSottari Dasha in fact. Shodsottari Dasha applies to charts with the Krishna Paksha (waning moon) in hora of the moon. OR in Sun's hora in waxing moon.

If LS is right, it seems half the charts shouldnt be done with Vimshottari.

Pierre T.


Depends how liberal the translation is:

Quote:
daśā bahuvidhāstāsu mukhyā viṃśottarī matā
kaiścidaṣṭottarī kaiścit kathitā ṣoḍaṣottarī


Quote:
दशा बहुविधास्तासु मुख्या विंशोत्तरी मता
कैश्चिदष्टोत्तरी कैश्चित् कथिता षोडषोत्तरी
and other shlokas till no 5.

This and other shlokas as translated as:( emphasis mine)


Maharishi Parashar replied. O Brahmin! Dashas are of many kinds. Amongst them Vimshottari is the most appropriate for the general populace. But the other Dashas, followed in special cases, are Astottari, Shodshottari, Dwadashottari, Panchottari, Shatabdik, Chaturashiti-sama, Dwisaptati-sama, Shastihayani, Shat-trimshat-sama. Our ancients have described these different kinds of Dashas, based on Nakshatras.

mukhyā = main.pre-eminent
has been translated as - most appropriate for general populace.

I am not sure where the second translation comes from:
followed in special cases

my limited sanskrit suggests that the author just lists the alternatives that others mention and ends up saying that they are nakshatra based.

So this version clearly says that the Vimshottari is the main dasa.

The justification for vimshottari is given later in sl 12:

In Kali Yuga the natural life-span of a human being is generally taken, as 120 years. Therefore Vimshottari Dasha is considered to be the most appropriate and the best of all Dashas.

Mantreshwara just goes to the point and says that Parashara has already worked it out by hit and trial and in his infinite wisdom and calls it

mahādāśā

Quote:
1. The nine planets who were worshipped in many ways with devotion for a long time by sage Parasara, having been pleased bestowed upon him the knowledge of accurately determining their effects (on births in this world). Being convinced after many tests that they are unfailing, I take out the essence from the astrological scripts containing his famous sayings and set forth the famous Maha Dasa.
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Pier



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 48

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Martin for the nice Sanskrit text,
I only wish I could read it directly,

Thanks Pankajdubey, and one question :

Would any of you who read Sanskrit comment further with the view to confirm what the editor is saying, at least as regards the Parasara text, whether Parasara indeed introduces that condition for VImshottari. ie, it would apply thus :

Quote : " Editor Chandrashekhar’s Comments: As a matter of fact BPHS does mention the fact of Vimshottari having to be used when birth is in the hora of Sun is in dark fortnight or hora of Chandra in bright fortnight thus: "

That would be important information, if we have 2 texts saying the same thing.

In effect, while looking at ShodSottari Dasa as described in Parasara, and that is clearly delineated, the calculation invites a complementary Dasa, as it applies to half the chart.

The other half would be seen with the condition introduced in LS and the Parasara suggested by Chandrashekhar.

Pierre
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pier wrote:
Thanks Martin for the nice Sanskrit text,
I only wish I could read it directly,

Thanks Pankajdubey, and one question :

Would any of you who read Sanskrit comment further with the view to confirm what the editor is saying, at least as regards the Parasara text, whether Parasara indeed introduces that condition for VImshottari. ie, it would apply thus :

Quote : " Editor Chandrashekhar’s Comments: As a matter of fact BPHS does mention the fact of Vimshottari having to be used when birth is in the hora of Sun is in dark fortnight or hora of Chandra in bright fortnight thus: "

That would be important information, if we have 2 texts saying the same thing.

In effect, while looking at ShodSottari Dasa as described in Parasara, and that is clearly delineated, the calculation invites a complementary Dasa, as it applies to half the chart.

The other half would be seen with the condition introduced in LS and the Parasara suggested by Chandrashekhar.

Pierre


Hi Pierre,

I don't have the hindi version with me but the problem with the source and versions and spurious chapters is mentioned here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brihat_Parashara_Hora_Shastra#Versions

PD
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Pier



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Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But it could also be Chadrashekhar commenting on a variant version of Parasara in one of the regional languages of India
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Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pier wrote:
Would any of you who read Sanskrit comment further with the view to confirm what the editor is saying, at least as regards the Parasara text, whether Parasara indeed introduces that condition for VImshottari.

If you'll give the editions and verse numbers, I'll be happy to translate them for you.
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Pier



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 48

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"If you'll give the editions and verse numbers, I'll be happy to translate them for you.[/quote]"

Thanks Martin, thats lovely,

Well the phrase I quoted (from the editor Chandrashekhar ) that you put into Devanagari appears to be the quote he uses to justify it. I seem to be reading there the mention of hora and chandra. Also kåñëe'rkahoräyäà

It would be nice if you could translate that one first of all !!

Now for the available english text, the passage is probably in GS Kapoor's translation of BPHS, vol 2, page 507, slokas 12-14. I'd be happy to have that translated, with the notion that perhpas Kapoor just used the common understanding at the time, without going word for word.

I have been checking Sharma's translation also. It seems to be the exact same sanskrit, slokas 12-14. This is page 3 of his vol 2.

I am not sure I can spot the text that Chandrashekhar is quoting. This is why I surmissed this morning this may come from alternate texts that he has available in India.

We know there are several versions also in other Indian languages. These texts are so important for us, and we have only the... so so translations which are not word for word, as they should be.

So Martin its so nice if you can translate these slokas 12-14 also, and check if anything is amiss. Thanks in advance !!

Pierre
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Pier



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Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
[quote="Pier"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brihat_Parashara_Hora_Shastra#Versions

PD


Thank you Pankajdudey, interesting link with comparative of the different versions.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK – I’ll give the Sanskrit in transliteration along with very literal translations; explicatory phrases are in square brackets. To begin with the verse quoted by Chandrashekhar:

saiṣā kṛṣṇe ’rkahorāyāṃ candrahorāgate site |
dahanāt svarkṣaparyantaṃ gaṇayen navabhir haret ||

‘This [sc. daśā] is in the dark [fortnight] in the horā or the Sun [or] in the horā of the Moon in the bright [fortnight]. One should count from [the asterism of] Fire up to one’s own asterism; one should divide [the result] by nine.’

The asterism of Fire = Agni is Kṛttikā. This verse does not appear in the two editions of the BPHS that you cite. You’re right that they both have the same Sanskrit text in the passages in question, as follows:

kṛttikātaḥ samārabhya trir āvṛtya daśādhipāḥ |
ācaṃkurāguśabukeśupūrvā vihagāḥ kramāt ||

‘Beginning from Kṛttikā [and] going around thrice, the planets beginning with Su, Mo, Ma, Rā, Ju, Sa, Me, Ke and Ve are the daśā rulers in order.’

(The author gives only the first syllable in each planet’s name.)

vahnibhāj janmabhaṃ yāvad yā saṃkhyā navataṣṭitā |
śeṣād daśādhipo jñeyas tam ārabhya daśāṃ nayet ||

‘The number that is from the asterism of Fire up to the asterism of birth, less by multiples of nine: the ruler of the daśā is to be known from the remainder; beginning with that, one should derive the daśā.’

viṃśottaraśataṃ pūrṇam āyuḥ pūrvam udāhṛtam |
kalau viṃśottarī tasmād daśā mukhyā dvijottama ||

‘A hundred and twenty has previously been explained to be the full span of life in Kali[yuga]; therefore Viṃśottarī is the foremost daśā, O best of the twice-born.’

I also have a Sanskrit-Hindi edition of the BPHS by Pt Devacandra Jhā. Its text is often completely different from the two editions above, though similar in meaning. The corresponding verses on Viṃśottarī are found in 47.11–13:

kṛttikādes [the text has ku- for kṛ-, a misprint] trir āvṛtya ravīndukujarāhavaḥ |
jīvārkivicchikhisitā daśeśāḥ parikīrtitāḥ ||

‘Going around thrice from the beginning of Kṛttikā, the Sun, Moon, Mars, Rāhu, Jupiter, Saturn, Mercury, Ketu and Venus are declared the daśā rulers.’

janurbham agnibhād yāvad vigaṇayyāṅkato bhajet |
śeṣāṅkato daśānāthas tato bhuktādim ānayet ||

‘Counting from the asterism of Agni up to the asterism of birth, one should divide by nine; from the number remaining the daśā ruler [is derived]; from it one should calculate the bhukti and so forth.’

daśābdās tatra rasadiksaptāṣṭendunṛpās tathā |
aṅkendavo ’śvacandrāś ca girayo viṃśatiḥ kramāt ||
viṃśottaryāṃ pūrṇam āyur viṃśottaraśataṃ smṛtam |

‘The daśā years there are six, ten, seven, eighteen, sixteen, nineteen, seventeen, seven and twenty, respectively. In Viṃśottarī, the full span of life is said to be a hundred and twenty.’
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Pier



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
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Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Martin

Well thanks ! You are awesome. I only wish such care in translation had been used in the common English texts. I particularly appreciate that you are letting that information out, 'the asterism of Agni, or Fire, up to one's own asterism etc." These nuances of the original text might have significant meanings, all too often air brushed. The Agni word could be relevant to meanings associated with VImhottari Dasa.

So Chandrashekhar is using a variant text for Parasara out of the several versions floating around in India. I will try contact him on Saptarishis to know where he got it from.

And we do have that, and the Lomasha Samhita, a classic listed in the historical resarch article linked to by Pankajdubey, as indices of the conditional nature of Vimshottari, which I had never seen commented by anyone before. Astrology is full of surprises.

Dear Martin I only wish that with your fresh mind and eye for accurate translation you'd spare a couple week ends to finish translating BPHS Wink I and many others would appreciate it no end !!!!

Pierre


Martin Gansten wrote:
OK – I’ll give the Sanskrit in transliteration along with very literal translations; explicatory phrases are in square brackets. To begin with the verse quoted by Chandrashekhar:

saiṣā kṛṣṇe ’rkahorāyāṃ candrahorāgate site |
dahanāt svarkṣaparyantaṃ gaṇayen navabhir haret ||

‘This [sc. daśā] is in the dark [fortnight] in the horā or the Sun [or] in the horā of the Moon in the bright [fortnight]. One should count from [the asterism of] Fire up to one’s own asterism; one should divide [the result] by nine.’

The asterism of Fire = Agni is Kṛttikā. This verse does not appear in the two editions of the BPHS that you cite. You’re right that they both have the same Sanskrit text in the passages in question, as follows:

kṛttikātaḥ samārabhya trir āvṛtya daśādhipāḥ |
ācaṃkurāguśabukeśupūrvā vihagāḥ kramāt ||

‘Beginning from Kṛttikā [and] going around thrice, the planets beginning with Su, Mo, Ma, Rā, Ju, Sa, Me, Ke and Ve are the daśā rulers in order.’

(The author gives only the first syllable in each planet’s name.)

vahnibhāj janmabhaṃ yāvad yā saṃkhyā navataṣṭitā |
śeṣād daśādhipo jñeyas tam ārabhya daśāṃ nayet ||

‘The number that is from the asterism of Fire up to the asterism of birth, less by multiples of nine: the ruler of the daśā is to be known from the remainder; beginning with that, one should derive the daśā.’

viṃśottaraśataṃ pūrṇam āyuḥ pūrvam udāhṛtam |
kalau viṃśottarī tasmād daśā mukhyā dvijottama ||

‘A hundred and twenty has previously been explained to be the full span of life in Kali[yuga]; therefore Viṃśottarī is the foremost daśā, O best of the twice-born.’

I also have a Sanskrit-Hindi edition of the BPHS by Pt Devacandra Jhā. Its text is often completely different from the two editions above, though similar in meaning. The corresponding verses on Viṃśottarī are found in 47.11–13:

kṛttikādes [the text has ku- for kṛ-, a misprint] trir āvṛtya ravīndukujarāhavaḥ |
jīvārkivicchikhisitā daśeśāḥ parikīrtitāḥ ||

‘Going around thrice from the beginning of Kṛttikā, the Sun, Moon, Mars, Rāhu, Jupiter, Saturn, Mercury, Ketu and Venus are declared the daśā rulers.’

janurbham agnibhād yāvad vigaṇayyāṅkato bhajet |
śeṣāṅkato daśānāthas tato bhuktādim ānayet ||

‘Counting from the asterism of Agni up to the asterism of birth, one should divide by nine; from the number remaining the daśā ruler [is derived]; from it one should calculate the bhukti and so forth.’

daśābdās tatra rasadiksaptāṣṭendunṛpās tathā |
aṅkendavo ’śvacandrāś ca girayo viṃśatiḥ kramāt ||
viṃśottaryāṃ pūrṇam āyur viṃśottaraśataṃ smṛtam |

‘The daśā years there are six, ten, seven, eighteen, sixteen, nineteen, seventeen, seven and twenty, respectively. In Viṃśottarī, the full span of life is said to be a hundred and twenty.’
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Pier



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Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm off topic here but,

As regards the way Dasa are listed in Parasara, it seems significant that they suggest we count from an asterism (Nakshatra) up to our asterism, then divide by 9. Isnt that an easier way to just do it in our mind without needing a cumbersome computer.

Its even easier with Jaimini Dasa. Last week I was working on a chart on the road with no computer available and computed Navamsa dasa and bukti in a few seconds just on a napkin. In the evening it was easy to check the accuracy with the computer. Thats the way they were doing it, and some still probably doing it in the villages etc. No PC needed.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is the word

सैषा
saiṣā
that interests me.

If it is a part of BPHS then it is not found anywhere in this sanskrit version.
Which is a bit unusual for an author not to write that word again.

Here is the sanskrit wiki site:
https://sa.wikisource.org/wiki/मुखपुटम्

and the search shows texts like mahabharata,ramayana and puranas and other religious texts mentioning this word but not astrological texts.

https://sa.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=विशेषः:शोध&limit=250&offset=0&profile=default&search=सैषा&searchToken=1ba48aixooc30xwf1bzaaiehw

writing to Mr Sharma would be a good idea.The wikipedia article already mentions the interpolations in the Venkateshwara press edition. I think this could well be an interpolation.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pier wrote:
Dear Martin I only wish that with your fresh mind and eye for accurate translation you'd spare a couple week ends to finish translating BPHS Wink I and many others would appreciate it no end !!!!

Thanks for the compliment. Smile The first problem, though, would be establishing which text to translate...
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Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
It is the word

सैषा
saiṣā
that interests me.

If it is a part of BPHS then it is not found anywhere in this sanskrit version.
Which is a bit unusual for an author not to write that word again.

It's really two words conjoined by sandhi: sā eṣā, both feminine demonstrative pronouns. The phrase means something like 'this, then'. Very likely there are other instances in the BPHS, though perhaps in the masculine or neuter gender (sa eṣa, so 'yam, tad etat, etc); it's not an unusual construction.
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