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Conditional Validity of VImshottari
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Pier



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 55

Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Pier wrote:
Dear Martin I only wish that with your fresh mind and eye for accurate translation you'd spare a couple week ends to finish translating BPHS Wink I and many others would appreciate it no end !!!!

Thanks for the compliment. Smile The first problem, though, would be establishing which text to translate...


I deeply appreciate the care you put in staying close to the texts in the fragments you just translated. This is an essential quality for such a rich and allusive material as BPHS.

Of course, which texts to do, thats a tricky choice. In his preface page 10 and 11 Ranjan Santhanam lists the texts he had access to. Not that it is inclusive. He worked mostly from the Sanskrit version by Sitaram Jha and some Hindi versions.

I'll try have some feedback from Chandrashekhar Sharma on what text he used. He has a website in Nagpur.

We know that there is a 16th century BPHS tucked in a university somewhere I dont even know the country, rumoured to be quite a bit shorter than the 97 chapters Santhanam did, that only teachers have access to. That would be a good thing to look at as it might be closer to the source. It seems that you teach, Martin in a university, so perhaps you could have access.

Remember KN Rao's saying, the present translations are mangled. Astrologers are working with faulty assumptions. Actually, astrologers who claim to be doing Parasara actually do not even apply 10% of what Parasara is saying. Not only for techniques, Vargas, but also for many yogas. I followed the work of Ernst Wilhelm who translated many parts of BPHS and unearthed many choice morcels. This is a worthy endeavour. Now, you hate me Martin Wink)))
Take it easy
Pierre
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pier wrote:
I followed the work of Ernst Wilhelm who translated many parts of BPHS and unearthed many choice morcels. This is a worthy endeavour. Now, you hate me Martin Wink)))

Not at all. But I'm afraid I'm a sort of anti-Ernst: Wink what I most appreciate about Indian astrology these days is its use of a sidereal zodiac, while the actual techniques I use on a daily basis are ones that would be more familiar to medieval Perso-Arabic astrologers. There's a bit of Indian astrology in that great synthesis, but also many elements that were unknown in India until the advent of Tājika astrology (13th century?). In fact, I'm currently hard at work translating the encyclopaedic Tājika work Hāyanaratna by Balabhadra (who also wrote the Horāratna of which Santhanam published a partial translation).
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Jupiterhead



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Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can you be 'anti-Ernst'?

Man is a scholar.
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Pier



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Martin Gansten" In fact, I'm currently hard at work translating the encyclopaedic Tājika work Hāyanaratna by Balabhadra (who also wrote the Horāratna of which Santhanam published a partial translation).[/quote]

Thats great, I m sure you can do a great job on Hayanaratna !

Concerning Ernst W. he made his choices, tropical and others. with tropical I now stand corrected it was not his best idea. Some of his translations were good, some debatable.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturnhead wrote:
How can you be 'anti-Ernst'?

Man is a scholar.

I didn't say that I was anti-Ernst but (in quotation marks, and with a smiley) that I was an anti-Ernst -- in the sense that we made opposite choices: he, to practise classical Indian astrology (or a modern variant of it, anyway) but abandoning the sidereal zodiac; I, to keep the sidereal zodiac but embrace astrological techniques not found in pre-Islamic Indian tradition.

As for Ernst Wilhelm being a scholar, I haven't read his books, but what little I've seen of his work on the web didn't strike me as very scholarly. Does he in fact have a scholarly background?
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Jupiterhead



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Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Saturnhead wrote:
How can you be 'anti-Ernst'?

Man is a scholar.

I didn't say that I was anti-Ernst but (in quotation marks, and with a smiley) that I was an anti-Ernst -- in the sense that we made opposite choices: he, to practise classical Indian astrology (or a modern variant of it, anyway) but abandoning the sidereal zodiac; I, to keep the sidereal zodiac but embrace astrological techniques not found in pre-Islamic Indian tradition.

As for Ernst Wilhelm being a scholar, I haven't read his books, but what little I've seen of his work on the web didn't strike me as very scholarly. Does he in fact have a scholarly background?


You haven't read his Jaimini Sutras translation?

Took him 10 years.

It's awesome.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturnhead wrote:
You haven't read his Jaimini Sutras translation?

No, as I said, I haven't read any of his books (and the so-called Jaimini system doesn't interest me much).

I found another book of Wilhelm's called Graha Sutras on Google Books and had a look at it; it did not in fact contain sūtras (aphorisms) but rather some ślokas (stanzas) from the BPHS, though most of it seemed to be Wilhelm's own writing. The Sanskrit text and translations were mostly correct, though there were quite a few minor errors. All in all, it didn't seem what I would call scholarly.

Anyway, we're way off topic here. My original comment was not intended as criticism of Wilhelm, but rather to point out (as Pierre had mentioned us both together) that we do rather different things.
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Pier



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Martin, and you all,

The editor whose remark started this whole train of thoughts (ie, Vimshottari being conditional and not applicable to all, as is currently thought) has been found on the web, through his web site.
I have written to Chandrashekhar Sharma asking what source text for Parasara he had, that contained this idea.

If he answers I will keep you informed here. But it doesnt seem that he answers a lot of queries on his site...

(In my almost 30 years practicing Jyotish I had never ever seen VImshottari the main Dasa system in India, being mentionned with a condition)

Pierre
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the Sanskrit-Hindi version of BPHS by Khemraj. It is interesting.
It is the 2010 version in which the translator launches a scathing attack on the translator of a Kashi version version for first nitpicking on the printing mistake and then goes on to point the mistakes of Kashi version translation.

In the last paragraph, he mentions:( translation and emphasis-mine)

Quote:
In this edition, a chapter of Lomash samhita in kshepak (क्षेपक)form (interpolated) has been explained properly with its real meaning, for that exposition of real meaning, I am grateful to my friend Jyotirvid Shri Pandit Chiranjilal ji....." .


The translator does not mention where this shloka is except saying it is in the purva khanda( first half).

He may be pointing to this shloka in poorva khanda,chapter 31- shloka 35-36
:
Quote:
atha nakṣatradaśāmāha
nakṣatrāyurmahāprājha purṇamagre prakāśitam
viṃśottarī paṃcadhā ca dvidhā ca aṣṭottarī matā ।। 35।।
अथ नक्षत्रदशामाह
नक्षत्रायुर्महाप्राझ पुर्णमग्रे प्रकाशितम्
विंशोत्तरी पंचधा च द्विधा च अष्टोत्तरी मता ।। ३५।।


which he goes on to translate as:

O mahabhaga ! nakshatra based dasas- 5 types of Vimshottari ( dasha,antardasha,pratyantardasha,sookshma and prana dasha) by differentiation( original hindi word is : bheda which can have different meaning ) and two types of Ashtottari dasha ( starting from Ardra and Krittika) have been detailed...

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=bheda&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0

Looks the Khemraj version has realised that they may have printed a interpolation earlier and are now trying to wriggle out of it.

The beginning of the chapter is like this:

Quote:
maitreya uvāca
daśāḥ katividhāḥ santi hyetanmebrūhi tattvataḥ ------

parāśara uvāca ।
athātaḥ saṃpravakṣyāmi daśābhedānanekaśaḥ ।।
viṃśottarī daśā coktā daśā tu ṣoḍaṣottarī ।। 2।।

मैत्रेय उवाच
दशाः कतिविधाः सन्ति ह्येतन्मेब्रूहि तत्त्वतः ------

पराशर उवाच ।
अथातः संप्रवक्ष्यामि दशाभेदाननेकशः ।।
विंशोत्तरी दशा चोक्ता दशा तु षोडषोत्तरी ।। २।।
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Pier



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Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread was started to point out a variant reading on Vimshottari Dasa.

Namely, an important Samhita text, the Lomasha Samhita has a view of Vimshottari as being a conditional dasa.
Vimshotari according to Lomasha S. applies to half the population. I'll specify the reasons a bit further down.

I also showed that the translator and editor to an english rendering of Lomasha S. (Chandrashekar S.) has a translation of Parasara that supports this Vimshottari Dasa being a conditional Dasa.

I wrote to Chandrashekhar about the origin on his Parasara text on his web site but he never answered, perhaps he never received it

It was shown that the complement to Vimshotari exists, a dasa that applies to the other half of the world, that is Shodasottari Dasa

I ve been working for the last few months with real life examples on that idea and it is really working well.

Now it turns out that P.S. Sastri in his Scientific textbook of Hindu Astrology, his last book I think, holds exactly that view, so of course I was not the first one to mention it. VImshottari contrary to popular belief, according to PS Sastri is not a dasa for everyone, it applies to half of the people with Shodasottari taking up the other half.
Sastri is quite adamant about it being the view of Parasahra. He explains that ALL Dasas mentionned by Parasara ARE conditional.
This shows that he is not using the Parasara text that westerners have access to, IE the Santhanam of Sharma translations. In his own chart he says, Vimshottari does not apply and Shodasottari works better.

Presumably one of the reasons for Vimshottari being for everyone comes from current english translations of Parasara which do now have the subtlelties in alternate texts, which appear only in some Hindu or Telugu or Sanskrit etc... versions. In English we do not have the whole tradition at our disposal. But of course there are other reasons, like the regions in India where Vimshottari was the main dasa in use are the ones where the texts where used for translations. In other parts of India Ashtottari is in wide use, or Yogini, etc

Now the technique :
Vimshottari applies if you are born with Asc in Sun's Hora with waning moon, or with Asc in Moon's Hora with waxing moon.
Count the nakshatras starting at birth nakshatra from Krittika, divide the total by 9 and count remainder from the sun.

Shodasottari applies with Asc in Moon's Hora with waning moon, or Asc in Hora of Sun with waxing moon.
Count the naksahtra starting at birth from Pushyami and divide the total by 8 and count the remainder of that division from the Sun.

Lastly, Lomasha Samhita mentions another variation to Vimhottari, whre in some cases it should be counted from Ardra and not Krittika, I programmed this in my software Winvega,

Pierre
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pierre wrote:
Quote:
Now it turns out that P.S. Sastri in his Scientific textbook of Hindu Astrology, his last book I think, holds exactly that view, so of course I was not the first one to mention it. VImshottari contrary to popular belief, according to PS Sastri is not a dasa for everyone, it applies to half of the people with Shodasottari taking up the other half.
Sastri is quite adamant about it being the view of Parasahra. He explains that ALL Dasas mentionned by Parasara ARE conditional.
This shows that he is not using the Parasara text that westerners have access to, IE the Santhanam of Sharma translations. In his own chart he says, Vimshottari does not apply and Shodasottari works better.

Pierre, could you please give the page number in Sastri's book that you are referencing so we can read his comments in context? It is helpful to give page numbers when we are quoting from another person's text. Thank you.

Yes, Sastri's Scientific Textbook of Hindu Astrology is his last book, published in 2004. We don't know Sastri's date of death, but we know he no longer was alive in 2004. We don't know if this book is one hundred percent Sastri or if parts might have been edited by the publisher. (This is a general note, not necessarily in reference to dasas being discussed here.)
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pier



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
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Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Therese,
this is as expected in the Chapter 23 about VImshottari and other dasa, page 487 vol. 1.
He mentions all 10 (nakshatra) dasas being conditional as per Parashara.

The copy I received (after 2 months wait) is the 2004 edition, and does not mention another editor nor anyone else but PS Sastri. If there was one meddling in the text it would have been written.. I would think Like Verma meddling with the PS Sastri translation of Jaimini Sutram.

Text Book of Scientific Hindu Ast is a great book by the way covering so many aspects in elegant, subtle writing !
Take it easy



Therese Hamilton wrote:

Pierre, could you please give the page number in Sastri's book that you are referencing so we can read his comments in context? We always need page numbers when we are quoting from another person's text. Thank you.

Yes, Sastri's Scientific Textbook of Hindu Astrology is his last book, published in 2004. We don't know Sastri's date of death, but we know he no longer was alive in 2004. We don't know if this book is one hundred percent Sastri or if parts might have been edited by the publisher. (This is a general note, not necessarily in reference to dasas being discussed here.)
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pierre wrote:
Quote:
This is as expected in the Chapter 23 about VImshottari and other dasa, page 487 vol. 1. He mentions all 10 (nakshatra) dasas being conditional as per Parashara.

The copy I received (after 2 months wait) is the 2004 edition, and does not mention another editor nor anyone else but PS Sastri...

Text Book of Scientific Hindu Ast is a great book by the way covering so many aspects in elegant, subtle writing!

Even with a wait of two months, Sastri's book is worth having. The book is getting more difficult to find and more expensive. I think there was only one published edition in 2004.

Sastri finished this final book when he was in his 80s, and it contains a long lifetime of experience and research. At 950 pages in two volumes there will probably never be a more complete look at India's astrology. The book is interesting because it not only covers all of India's astrological techniques, but Sastri also offers his experience and opinion on various topics, often with example charts. In many ways reading the book is like sitting at the feet of a grand old master.

P.S. Sastri was very open to western concepts as well, and claims that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are mentioned in ancient tests (but under other names). So the book is very entertaining to read, not a dry textbook at all. The print job is also exceptionally attractive in two hardback books of fine quality. This is very unusual for India. I expect if the book is re-published, it will be in paperback.

And yes, Sastri's strong opinion is that we should be considering dasas other than Vimshottari, which raises the question of using KP, which is based on Vimshottari major and sub-periods. I've had Sastri's book for several years, but had never read his chapters on Dasas.
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