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Whole Sign vs Continuous Profections

 
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Mark
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 5:28 pm    Post subject: Whole Sign vs Continuous Profections Reply with quote

I am giving a talk on profections this week and wondered if anyone could assist me on a historical question on profections?

In particular, when did whole sign profections give way to profections incorporating sign division calculated continuously? Can we assume this coincided with the decline of whole sign houses around the 8-9th century CE?

As I understand it the Perso-Arabs first experimentated with equal house profections before exploring a quadrant based approach.

I am curious when the whole sign profections gave way to what one might call the incremental or continuous profections characteristic of later medieval and renaissance astrology you find used by astrologers like William Lilly?

In the latter approach the whole chart can be profected forward continuously throughout the year at approximately 2.5 degrees per month. I believe the renaissance astrologers usually restricted the profected points to hyleg points. Looking at the profected ASC one gets a distinct difference between the profected sign and house.

This seems very different from the the yearly and monthly sub-periods one can derive from whole sign profections.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Tue May 24, 2016 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Konrad



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Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

Omar Tiberiades is the earliest astrologer i have seen using continuous profections. It has been a while since I read his text, so I may be wrong, but I remember him using whole-sign houses.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Whole Sign vs Continuous Profections Reply with quote

It's difficult to say with certainty when continuous profections were first used, as almost all Persian sources are lost. The earliest definite source I can recall seeing is ʿUmar aṭ-Ṭabarī, who died c. 815 CE.

Mark wrote:
As I understand it the Perso-Arabs first experimentated with equal house profections before exploring a quadrant based approach.

Do you mean profections of one quadrant house per year? That wouldn't square with 2.5 degrees per month, though. I'd be interested to see some sources for that if you know any. The only authors I recall explicitly mentioning the option of one quadrant house per year are Robert Zoller and, curiously, Balabhadra in 17th-century India.

Incidentally (and not directly related to your question, but perhaps relevant to the history of the technique), I believe Bezza was right in suggesting that the original Latin term was perfectio, not profectio (per- and pro- being abbreviated in very similar ways in Latin manuscripts and early printed books). That would agree with the meanings of the Greek and Arabic names for the technique.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
Do you mean profections of one quadrant house per year?


I was discussing two issues. 1. Early Perso-Arabic use of Profections using equal houses (Ben Dykes briefly discussed this in some lecture notes from a workshop on profections) 2. Continuous profections taught by renaissance astrologers/Zoller. The 2.5 degree per month was simply an average for a month not a description of the actual rate of continuous profection. I understand from Margherita Fiorello that only certain points were profected this way in renaissance astrology such as the ASC or another hyleg point.

Mark
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Continuous profections taught by renaissance astrologers/Zoller. The 2.5 degree per month was simply an average for a month not a description of the actual rate of continuous profection.

I'm not sure who those Renaissance astrologers were, but there were plenty of medieval Arabic astrologers (and I suppose European ones as well) who used continuous profections with an actual rate of 2.5 degrees/month, or just over 12 days/degree, while also using quadrant houses. The same practices were also transmitted from the Perso-Arabic area to India. House systems and methods of profection seem to have been separate issues (just as house systems and methods of direction were separate issues up to the Renaissance).

Quote:
I understand from Margherita Fiorello that only certain points were profected this way in renaissance astrology such as the ASC or another hyleg point.

I think that is generally true for all periods, right from antiquity.
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margherita



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Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ptolemy says something at the end of Quadripartite, IV, 10. "We shall discover the general chronocrators, then, in the manner described, and the annual chronocrators by setting out from each of the prorogatory places, in the order of the signs, the number of years from birth, one year to each sign, and taking the ruler of the last sign. We shall do the same thing for the months, setting out, again, the number of months from the month of birth, starting from the places that govern the year, twenty-eight days to a sign; and similarly for the days, we shall set out the number of the days from the day of birth, starting with the places which govern the months, two and a third days to a sign."
Paulus of Alexandria does the same too (page 69 Holden's translation).
To me Paulus is using "something like" WSH because with a divisional system cusps could be everywhere, two houses could fall in the same sign and intercepted signs for others, when Paulus says every sign has a year, a month, a day.

PS Love Bezza was right Smile

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Mark
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margherita wrote:
Quote:
Ptolemy says something at the end of Quadripartite, IV, 10. "We shall discover the general chronocrators, then, in the manner described, and the annual chronocrators by setting out from each of the prorogatory places, in the order of the signs, the number of years from birth, one year to each sign, and taking the ruler of the last sign. We shall do the same thing for the months, setting out, again, the number of months from the month of birth, starting from the places that govern the year, twenty-eight days to a sign; and similarly for the days, we shall set out the number of the days from the day of birth, starting with the places which govern the months, two and a third days to a sign."


I know you admire Ptolemy in all things Margherita but I must say I find his 28 day method of sub-periods too convoluted for my taste. To me 12 monthly sub-periods makes intuitive sense and fits the 12 signs. So i am with Valens rather than Ptolemy on this issue. I have found this approach working in charts. I am curious if you have you actually used the Ptolemy of profectional sub-periods in working on charts?

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
House systems and methods of profection seem to have been separate issues (just as house systems and methods of direction were separate issues up to the Renaissance).


Well they certainly became separate once quadrant house systems proliferated.

But the original idea of discrete annual profections based on whole signs we see in Valens would surely not have worked with quadrant systems that create intercepted signs.

Mark
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
But the original idea of discrete annual profections based on whole signs we see in Valens would surely not have worked with quadrant systems that create intercepted signs.

I don't see why not. A symbolic motion of one sign per year doesn't have to be tied up with house division (although naturally, I can see that streamlining the technique may be more elegant).

Interestingly (to me, anyway), the Perso-Arabic astrological techniques that were transmitted to India contain both a discrete profection of the ascendant at one sign per year (called the munthā) and an occasional use of continuous profections (not typically connected with the munthā) -- and quadrant houses. The juxtaposition doesn't seem to have bothered anyone.
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margherita



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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
To me 12 monthly sub-periods makes intuitive sense and fits the 12 signs. So i am with Valens rather than Ptolemy on this issue. I have found this approach working in charts. I am curious if you have you actually used the Ptolemy of profectional sub-periods in working on charts?

Mark


13 sub periods have their logic because every set in this way starts with the "right" sign.
If we are in Aries year, counting 12 sub periods per year the second year, the Taurus year- will start with Aries. But if we count 13 sub-periods, the second year will start with Taurus month too.

In Cieloeterra they use 13 subperiods, anyway I don't use sub-periods in the profection so much. I prefer something else, I prefer to count months in the solar return
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margherita wrote:
Quote:
13 sub periods have their logic because every set in this way starts with the "right" sign.
If we are in Aries year, counting 12 sub periods per year the second year, the Taurus year- will start with Aries. But if we count 13 sub-periods, the second year will start with Taurus month too.


I dont follow your description of 12 monthly sub-periods profection. Its not the way I use them. First monthly period starts in sign of annual profection. Lets say its a Taurus/2nd year profection. I would start first month with Taurus. Last sub-period in Aries. That seems totally logical to me. Am I missing something?

I would like to see an example of 13 sub periods. Presumably it cannot be whole sign like Valens used.

Margherita wrote:
Quote:
In Cieloeterra they use 13 subperiods, anyway I don't use sub-periods in the profection so much. I prefer something else, I prefer to count months in the solar return


That sounds interesting. Is this something you got from renaissance astrology or did you develop it yourself?
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

I dont follow your description of 12 monthly sub-periods profection. Its not the way I use them. First monthly period starts in sign of annual profection. Lets say its a Taurus/2nd year profection. I would start first month with Taurus. Last sub-period in Aries. That seems totally logical to me. Am I missing something?

The next year - the 3rd one- will be a Gemini profection year. The first month will be a Gemini month.
But the previous month, the last of the Taurus year, was an Aries month. Where is the Taurus month?
With the 13 monthly subperiods method, on the other hand the Taurus year will finish with Taurus and the new year will start with the Gemini month.

Quote:
That sounds interesting. Is this something you got from renaissance astrology or did you develop it yourself?

It's Ben Dykes method, which divides the months of the solar return according the ascensional times. Not mine at all
With Solar Fire I use a 4wheel, with radix, solar return, profection, transit WSH. Then I copy on the solar return signs the dates according ascensional times (from Delphic Oracle) but i imagine i could do something like a month by sign more or less, that's all. It works a lot in my opinion.

margherita
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