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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Relocation and Astrocartography

 
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Yair Alon



Joined: 16 Jul 2014
Posts: 93

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:12 pm    Post subject: Relocation and Astrocartography Reply with quote

Hello, all!

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post. If not, I'm sorry.

I would like to know what is your general opinion about the so-called Relocation Astrology and Astrocartography. I have never heard traditional astrologers mentioning something like it.

For example, do you believe we should look for the best places for a native to go during his Solar Return?

I would like to take the opportunity of the post to ask recommendations about books and courses (if possible online, and preferably of traditional sources, but modern is fine too).

Thank you all!
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2901
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi yair,


jb morin definitely used relocated solar return charts.. that is 17th century, so not sure if that qualifies for trad with the trad crowd..

if you are interested in the topic, i suggest getting jim lewis's seminal book on the topic.. it is a good starting point and has apparently been re-released again so that folks don't have to pay an arm and a leg for a 2nd hand copy - which is what i have..

good luck in your studies!

found on this thread - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9020&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

"Dear James
In the two treatises on anniversary revolution by Ibn Ezra that I have published, no geographical location is specified. However, ​Ibn Ezra repeatedly says than many calculations should be done using the table of ascensions for the country where the native was born. See, for example, in my last volume, p. 185, 189, 199, etc.
Best regards,
Shlomo Sela"

reading this again, this appears to be further support for only using the birth location..
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Yair Alon



Joined: 16 Jul 2014
Posts: 93

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
jb morin definitely used relocated solar return charts.. that is 17th century, so not sure if that qualifies for trad with the trad crowd..


Interesting to know. I would consider it to be a traditional source, yes, but I wonder if "older" people also used it.

james_m wrote:
jb morin definitely used relocated solar return charts.. that is 17th century, so not sure if that qualifies for trad with the trad crowd..

"Dear James
In the two treatises on anniversary revolution by Ibn Ezra that I have published, no geographical location is specified. However, ​Ibn Ezra repeatedly says than many calculations should be done using the table of ascensions for the country where the native was born. See, for example, in my last volume, p. 185, 189, 199, etc.
Best regards,
Shlomo Sela"

reading this again, this appears to be further support for only using the birth location..


Interesting to know. This is what I know too, that the ancient ones didn't use relocation that much, if ever, even when casting transits!

Thanks for the book tip, I'll look for it and try to understand this art too, with all its nomenclature.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4958
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Yair Alon,

I dont know about using relocation for solar returns. In traditional terms that may only date from Morin's time. On the other hand you may want to consider the social fact that travel and mobility was not that common in the medieval period. The tradition may not have changed significantly but human mobility has with people frequently relocating not just to different countries but different continents.

Astro*Cartography is a very useful technique. It highlights where on earth planets fall on the angles. Even without going anywhere Astro*Cartography can point to parts of the world where the natal radix may be more optimal in its expression. For example where is our Sun or Jupiter move to the MC or ASC.

Astro*Cartography helps a lot with a traditional mundane technique like the Aries ingress. For example we know that Mars was on the ASC of the US Aries ingress this year. But where exactly did the Mars line fall geographically in the USA? Astrocatography software gives us an exact , accessible view of exactly where that is without having to cast charts everywhere. It turns out that this Mars line ran straight across Orlando in Florida where the mass shooting happened last month. A very graphic demonstration of how a piece of modern software can assist with an ancient technique.







I have also found this technique very useful working on natal charts. Here is an article by Martin Davis a well known authority on this subject:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/acg.html

As an introduction I strongly recommend Martin Davis book ''Astrolocality Astrology'' A a new edition has just been published.

More on astro*Cartography:

http://www.astrocartography.co.uk/MartinD.htm

http://www.astrocartography.co.uk/

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:05 pm; edited 3 times in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2901
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

playing devils advocate here mark, the example is all fine and good, but how do you explain the many horrific events of a martial nature taking place around the globe, the instance of the bombing in baghdad this past day being on a scale similar, if not larger in magnitude? we live in a world where some people's lives and events seem to be valued more then others, or the msm has a way of giving us this impression..

image upload

and the cancer ingress which is in effect here..

screen shot
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4958
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
playing devils advocate here mark, the example is all fine and good, but how do you explain the many horrific events of a martial nature taking place around the globe, the instance of the bombing in baghdad this past day being on a scale similar, if not larger in magnitude? we live in a world where some people's lives and events seem to be valued more then others, or the msm has a way of giving us this impression..


I dont value human life in Iraq any less than the USA James. But we surely need to consider the intrinsic violence of the culture at the time we are dealing with it? Iraq has been effectively a bloody war zone for over a decade. Mass killing incidents in the USA are surely not as common as terrorist incidents or warfare at present in Iraq , Afghanistan or Pakistan? You have to apply your astrology to the particular culture you are looking at. That just seems like common sense to me.

By the way Pluto has been angular near the MC in both the Aries and Cancer ingress charts located for Iraq this year. In the Cancer ingress chart located for Istanbul this year the Moon was in detriment in Capricorn on the MC.

I cant speak for others but all my personal experience of astrology strongly confirms the view that angular planets are very powerful in their expression. This is true whether we are examining horary, natal or mundane charts.

Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2901
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,
i wasn't singling you out on this topic.. i am sure it's an observation many others have made too, especially anyone having looked at aries ingress charts for some time..

also, although the window is fairly tight on the location of orlando to the mars on the ascendant, there will be many other places on this line as well. why orlando and not the other places? astrology can't answer this even if it evades my observation by bringing cultural backdrop into it..

yes - pluto on the midheaven isn't much different in terms of terrorist attacks and i was aware of that..

last year i did the aries ingress charts looking for where mars landed on the ascendant.. i will see if i can find that post to affirm or not this general theory you are presenting here... i also witnessed this for donetsk, ukraine in 2014 if memory serves me correctly..

jpg images

as you can see in the chart above and below, mars is angular, but it isn't exact.. donetsk was the location for much of the mayhem and murder in this area during 2014 and 2015. i would be careful thinking the tighter the aspect the more likely a martial outcome.. it seems to be it can function in a wider orb then how it has happened in orlando..

image upload no size limit
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2901
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i feel like i am on the mundane forum! - 9-11

well, it certainly was clear in some respects for the 2001 aries ingress set to new york...this time it is the malefic saturn though, not mars and it is supposed to be better in a duirnal chart then a nocturnal one...

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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4958
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote
Quote:
Last year i did the aries ingress charts looking for where mars landed on the ascendant.. i will see if i can find that post to affirm or not this general theory you are presenting here.


James, I made my comments on this thread to answer a question from Yair Alon not to enter into a debate on the merits of the technique with you. I just used an ingress chart as an illustrative example of Astro*Cartography. Please keep in mind this is not the mundane forum.

Mark
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

Quote:
I don't know about using relocation for solar returns. In traditional terms that may only date from Morin's time.


As is typical for Morin, he never states outright, that he is breaking new ground. On page 9 of Astrologia Gallica Book 23 on Revolutions of the Sun, Chapter IV "For what places Should the Figure of a Revolution be Erected," he writes:

Quote:
About this matter, the old astrologers settled absolutely nothing


Use of the word "settled" implies a controversy existing at this time (mid 17th century), but he continues:

Quote:
... but, in common with them, the moderns (i.e. mid 17th century astrologers), by tradition only, always erect the figure of the revolution for the latitude of the natal place.


This implies the opposite of the opening of the sentence.

Conclusion: we don't use Morinus for accurate history. In this case, he wants it both ways. But he goes on to make his argument. This is where, I think, he shines. Morinus explains his reasoning for virtually everything. We don't have to accept it, but it is there for us to dissect. Roughly it runs this way: he believes that at the moment of the first breath the human is infused with the energies of his chart. He also believes the return of the Sun to its natal place* in the cosmos signals a new beginning that is in effect until the next return. Therefore, wherever the human is, that is where the annual infusion takes place. He also notes that people of his era are beginning to travel more and are more likely to be far from their birthplace than they were in the distant past; therefore the other method worked, because the native was almost always near his birthplace.

To make his case he cites the final few months of the life of Gustav Adolphus, who was in Sweden for his birth, and in Germany fighting in Mainz, Germany, for his solar return, and Nuremberg, Germany for the lunar return before his death, each chart exquisitely demonstrating the truth of Morin's method. Well, he thought so. the solar return is accurate in delineation. Morin used the Rudolphine tables to calculate and for that reason, he probably never calculated an accurate solar or lunar return in his life. In this case the errors in the solar return were meaningless as far as delineation goes, but the lunar return is off by a lot. The points he was making about the positions of the planets in the signs are more affected in the lunar return than the solar.

The way to check this is to cast all charts for Stockholm and see if they work or say something else. That's on my list but don't hold your collective breath.

Philosophically Morin has a point, but whether it works out well would take some serious effort on the part of an enterprising astrologer. However, he would be bolstered by the mundane argument. If we cast the Aries Ingress for the locale that interests us, why not the solar return for the locale of the native? Why not cast the Aries Ingress for the capital of the world, wherever that might be? He is consistent on this point, others are not. Whether he is right or not is a different matter.

*Morin argued that the Sun was at 0 Aries at the time of the Creation, but that the positions of the other planets are unknown. He claims to prove that in one of the books of Astrologia Gallica that has not been translated from the Latin.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1213
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good way to study birthplace and location solar returns is to compare the charts of public officials with known birth data who were born in another location than the city in which they serve. (Such as Washington DC for the government in the US or state or district capital cities) Check the solar return for the date they were elected or sworn into office. Often the date of the election is more significant than the swearing-in date.

Another wrinkle is whether or not to remove precession for return charts. If noted astrologers such as Robert Hand swear by precession corrected tropical charts, that is something else to consider. Mark Penfield wrote an entire book on tropical precession corrected returns with hundreds of example charts. (Solar Returns in Your Face, American Federation of Astrologers, 1996)

To see the full effect of solar returns, they have to be viewed in double wheel format with the natal chart using solar return angles. Any natal planet that is close to an SR angle or closely aspects an angle or in close aspect with a solar return planet will be significant for that year.

I have always found solar return charts more helpful and accurate than astrocartography which doesn't always check out in my experience. Return charts are more precise.
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lifestudent



Joined: 27 Nov 2013
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cast the ingress chart in sidereal zodiac or correct for precession, else you do not have accurate charts.

Return charts should also be cast to relocation and corrected for precession.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

let me adjust my (sidereal) tin foil hat and get back to you on that.. thanks..
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