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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:12 pm    Post subject: Puzzle Reply with quote

One of my favorite authors is H.L. Mencken (1880-1956), aka The Bard of Baltimore. I'm not going in to his biography or his numerous critics' opinions then or now. I did read something about him recently that might be fun to look at.
,
Mencken was born, according to his autobiography, on Sept 12, 1880 at 9:00 PM, Baltimore, Maryland. I'd use LMT. However, and this time is again according to Mencken himself, he had a twin 35 minutes older stillborn.

So what, if anything, is different in the respective charts that life would not begin for one twin, and the other would become first a household name then a giant literary figure? I glanced at the two charts and came up with a couple of ideas, but they are not conclusive and of course there is always lots of room here for discussion.

I know the death thing troubles some, but we are talking about a man who died 60 years ago, and his twin 76 years before that.

I'm not interested in his life on this thread. We can do that elsewhere if anyone wishes and I may have done a mystery chart using his. I'm not sure about that. My interest here is parochial. Is there something in the earlier chart that indicates death or what Ptolemy would call lack of rearing, that is not in the second chart?

I know these times are probably not dead on accurate, so a little fudging is permitted.

I'll post the stillborn chart first then Mencken's.


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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Mjacob



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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At first glance I would suspect that he term rulers of the sixth twelfth house axis had something to do with it
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes as Mjacob says it seems to relate to bound rulers.

Although Tom notes:
Quote:
I know these times are probably not dead on accurate, so a little fudging is permitted.


mmm kind of a challenge then without accurate data. If we are trying to explain differences in charts just 20 odd minutes different I would thought an example with more precise times would be more useful. However, I have decided to play with the times you have provided...

In the chart of the still born sibling ASC bound ruler is Jupiter (Egyptian & Ptolemaic). Its in the 12th house, retrograde, and the Moon is in an applying square. The Moon is of course a traditional signifcator for the body along with the ASC and here it is in detriment in Capricorn. Jupiter is the night triplicity ruler of the fire signs. However, Jupiter is out of sect here both by time and placement above the ASC-DESC axis at night. Jupiter is also in a plactic opposition by whole sign to Venus the domicile ruler of the ASC. The bound ruler of Jupiter is Mercury which is combust the Sun.

For H L Mencken his bound ruler is Mars (Egyptian & Ptolemaic) . While in detriment in Libra this is mitigated by it being sect in a night chart. Also it is placed in the fortunate 5th house. Mars is also in conjunction with Venus the ASC ruler which is strongly placed in Libra and in the house of its joy. Although Mars does has signification as Lord 12 so that presumably had some relevance to Mencken's life. I understand he was a writer so perhaps that meant a lot of time in isolation. His MC is in the bound (Egyptian) of Mercury. Also his ASC is on the fixed star cluster of the Pleiades of the nature of Mars. So combined with Mars as his bound ruler that would give him a much more pugnacious nature than might be expected with Venus as a domcile ruler. The star cluster is also quite unfortunate in reputation so I imagine his life was not smooth or easy.

Mark
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
mmm kind of a challenge then without accurate data. If we are trying to explain differences in charts just 20 odd minutes different I would thought an example with more precise times would be more useful. However, I have decided to play with the times you have provided...


This is a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. I gave the data as reported in volume 1 of Mencken's three volume autobiography. I think Rodden would have rated this "B." I added the remark about fudging for this reason: I had visions of one of the many talented astrologers around here looking at this and saying, "Damn, I could figure this out perfectly, if the live birth was 9:04 instead of 9:00 AM." Since it is pretty obvious the times are a bit rounded, I figured I'd let people play with it that way, if they wanted to. But if we can get it to work using the times given, so be it.

I looked at the bounds as this is the most obvious way to see how a few minutes difference could manifest, but I think I've found something else, using the given times, worthy of an Agatha Christie novel. This is why I liked this so much. Think Worsdale.

I'll wait a bit and then offer my own findings.
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Fleur



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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am struggling to read those charts and particularly the date of birth, but I think it says September 12th 1880?

If so, IsisTranspluto is just over 1 degree Cancer, it stations at 1 degree Cancer 12 minutes on October 6th 1880. So it is conjunct this chart's Moon's South Node.

Phaethon is 4 degrees Cancer.

I can't read the degree of Taurus on the Ascendant of the stillborn baby, but it looks like roughly 15.5 degrees Taurus? That would be exactly 45 degrees to 0 degrees Cancer 30 minutes, which would make the Ascendant within one degree of an aspect to IsisTranspluto, which itself is conjunct the Moon's South Node, which represents where we came from.

The Moon's Nodes aspecting (using only conjunctions, squares, oppositions, semi-squares, not any other kind of aspect) the chart angles represents fame, so very weird that it is the stillborn twin who has this, and not the famous writer.

I don't know whether you have used the "true" Moons Nodes or the mean Nodes? It really matters.

I had never heard of him before, and I just looked him up on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Mencken In spite of him being described as elitist and scathing, just having IsisTranspluto aspecting his Moons Nodes would make him very popular; maybe he had a lot of emotional appeal for something in the Cancerian American psyche.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mean nodes are used in both.

The data is as follows.

Stillborn: September 12, 1880
8:25 PM LMT
Baltimore, MD
15 Taurus 01 rises

Henry Louis Mencken
Sept 12, 1880
9:00 PM LMT
Baltimore MD
26 Taurus 28 rises

We generally don't use the hypotheticals, asteroids etc in the traditional forum.

I don't want to get into a discussion of Menken's personality here. He is not easy to categorize, but as you noted he was very popular (and like any controversial figure he had plenty of detractors) and as Wiki noted at times his writing style was scathing - but he was so good at it.

If there is some interest in him, I'd be happy to post the chart on another thread and discuss him. He's a favorite topic of mine.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are a few quotes to tease. Here is one used by both political parties in the US at one time or another:

Quote:
On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.


On religion:

Quote:
Say what you will about the ten commandments, you must always come back to the pleasant fact that there are only ten of them.


Quote:
Immorality: the morality of those who are having a better time.


On the law:

Quote:
A judge is a law student who marks his own examination papers.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked at the bounds, too and I didn't think they were enough. So, knowing this was about a death, I immediately thought of John Worsdale, and what I think is the first example in Celestial Philosophy. In that example the child died at about age 2. Worsdale did not (could not) use primary directions as the life was too short for any significant change by direction in the nativity. So he used transits. However this case is either a child who was born dead or died immediately after birth, so transits aren't a factor.

I looked to check for the hyleg This is a night chart with the Moon above the horizon so the Moon is our first candidate. But this is what threw me. The Moon in the stillborn's chart is in the 9th, and the Moon in Mencken's chart is in the 8th - precisely the opposite of what we might expect.

The other planets above the horizon are all in the 12th house and cannot be hyleg. I then realized that the Moon cannot be hyleg in the 8th house, but it can be in the 9th. The Moon is in the sign of his detriment (Capricorn) and in the stillborn chart and in a partile square to Venus, lady of the ASC. She is keeping company with Mars and both are in mixed mutual reception with a seriously debilitated Saturn in 12. This is not enough for us to predict a death in most charts, but this was a stillborn or a death that took place immediately after birth.

The hyleg in Mencken's chart is either the ASC or the POF. The ascendant is not being clobbered by anything. I'm not a Pluto fan, but Pluto needs to be looked at for other reasons, since it is tight to the ASC. However I know of no one who claims Pluto on the ASC is a harbinger of premature death.

The POF in Mencken's chart is angular and unimpeded.

So my point is that the relatively short time between births changed the hyleg and changed the fortunes of the children.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bounds and hylegs as possible answer.. interesting.. i guess you go with what you have to work with. i note the degree of the midheaven applying to 12th house saturn - exact approx 5 minutes after birth... anything else i might offer is ''non'' trad in perspective..
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Konrad



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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If one uses the ancient and very much traditional Sidereal zodiac and the typical rules for whether a child receives nourishment or not (as found in Dorotheus, Masha'allah, Abu Ali al-Khayyat and so on), there is no need for mental gymnastics to solve this puzzle.

The chart of the child who did not live has Mars ruling the ASC in the 6th sign with the primary triplicity lord of the ASC, the PNL and the Moon, Jupiter, cadent and in the 12th sign. Also cadent and in a bad house is Venus and this fulfills each condition given by Abu Ali (p227 of Dykes' translation). The later chart of the child who lived has the ASC's primary triplicity lord succedent as is the ASC lord, Venus, who is in a good sign from the ASC just like Jupiter, the primary triplicity lord of the PNL and the Moon, though it may be cadent by quadrants if you use the 5 degree rule.

As for using the Hyleg, the authors clearly state that you should only use this if you confirm first that the one who was born will receive nourishment (see p231 of Dykes' Persian Nativities I, for example).
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following up on the triplicity rulers mentioned by Konrad in a tropical context we find the ASC, Moon (sect light) and Sun are all in earth signs. So the triplicity rulers of all these points are the Moon ,Venus and Mars.

Irrespective on whether we consider the Moon the hyleg or not here it has particular significance as the sect light and the primary triplicity ruler of the earth signs in a night chart.

Using quadrant houses (Alcabitius, Porphyry, Placidus) it is noteable that all these 3 triplicity lords are in succedent houses in HL Mencken's chart while in the still born sibling chart all these planets are cadent.

Excellent point by James about the MC applying by square to Saturn Rx , in fall, in the 12th in the deceased sibling's chart. I also note the Lot of Fortune closely applies by square to Saturn at the assumed time of birth. In ancient astrology this was linked to the Moon and physical body.

Mark
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed the MC, but could not make a connection with the native or the body. But the POF has to do with the body and it is in a Saturn sign.

One of the other things that struck me but that I could not connect to life or death is the change of signs holding the MC. Mencken has Aquarius on the MC while his ill fated sibling has Capricorn. Both, of course, are ruled by the same Satur
n
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Stellarium



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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The differing conditions of the Lot of Fortune stand out to me.

Stillborn LOF:
Tight square with Saturn/Aries/12th
Placed in bound of a debilitated malefic (Mars/Libra)
Ruled by Saturn and Mars (two debilitated malefics although Saturn is in its own bounds)
9th house

Mencken's LOF:
Tight superior trine from Venus/Libra/6th
Placed in bound of a dignified benefic (Venus/Libra)
Ruled by Saturn (a debilitated malefic that is somewhat strengthened by being in own bounds)
10th house
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Cédric



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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about looking at things from a different point of view?
What we consider when a child is born is an event: the time when we cut the cord and the baby breathes for the first time (from which point we analyze vitality).
So, if a child is stillborn, this expected event never happens. Then the first chart relates to nothing; only the known Macknen's is a legitimate one and the puzzle is no more.
Just food for thoughts.
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