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Moon Traits in Zodiac Signs
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:05 am    Post subject: Moon Traits in Zodiac Signs Reply with quote

Moon Traits in Zodiac Signs

Without having to comb trough a pile of texts, I've been wondering when and by whom traits of the Moon in signs of the zodiac were first introduced? Was Alan Leo the first person to write about the Moon's traits in zodiac signs, or was this earlier than Leo? I know in India the lunar mansions were connected with lunar traits from a very early date, but I don't specfically recall when lunar zodiac sign traits were introduced.

Thanks,
Therese
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Fleur



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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/46963/46963-h/46963-h.htm

I haven't had time to look through the free book by Sepharial at project Gutenberg, linked above. I seem to think I have read a book by him which describes the Sun and Moon in the signs. I am not sure if he came before Alan Leo, or maybe he was a contemporary. Sepharial was a Theosophist too.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/46963/46963-h/46963-h.htm

I haven't had time to look through the free book by Sepharial at project Gutenberg, linked above. I seem to think I have read a book by him which describes the Sun and Moon in the signs. I am not sure if he came before Alan Leo, or maybe he was a contemporary. Sepharial was a Theosophist too.

Thanks, Fleur. I like your flower! That's a helpful link. But I was mainly wondering about classical sources as I have no memory of Moon-Zodiac sign traits in the older texts. But then I can't vouch for my memory in recent years.

Question: Today Skyscript is forcing me to log in each time I enter the forum. Is this something new or a glitch for today?
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waybread



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Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting question. One unorthodox place to look for information is in ancient coins, which sometimes contained astrological symbols. A denarius was minted during the reign of Augustus Caesar (27 BCE-14 CE) which represented his moon in Capricorn.

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Augustus#_note-0

Also, if you look at the various horoscopes given by Neugebauer and Van Hoesen in the Greek Horoscopes monograph and Neugebauer's "Demotic Horoscopes" articles, which include non-literary archaeological finds, you will find moon signs, as well. These all date from the Hellenistic period.

Let me know if you need the references.

We don't always know how these were interpreted, but they do show the moon sign to be significant; in Caesar's case, perhaps moreso than what he thought about his sun sign.


Last edited by waybread on Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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waybread



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Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just looked at Firmicus Maternus. Initially he seems to think of planets in signs primarily in terms of their strength and weakness, in terms of their ability to act effectively. This seems lacking in detail, in light of our modern planets-in-signs cookbooks, and a lot like traditional western astrology with its focus on planetary weakness or strength according to essential dignities.

But in book 5:6 in a section labelled "the moon in different signs," what FM really means is the phase and sect of the moon in the terms or decans ruled by different planets. But this is real cookbook stuff, once you work out whether your moon phase and day or night moon falls into the term or decan of Jupiter vs. Saturn, for example. For example, a full moon in early Leo falls into the terms and decan of Saturn. This is supposed to make the native, "sluggish, cold in mind and body. They are lacking in boldness, but have certain periods of rash fury."

Waning moons usually indicate some serious diminution of character and misfortunes.

So this is more detailed than modern moon-sign material.

FM has some more complicated calculations (book 6) for determining the qualities of the native's family members and various sorts of prognostication, some of them involving the moon in signs.

Ptolemy has a bit of information of this nature, but not in a modern cookbook sense. (3:14, on "diseases of the soul," which apparently means mental illness.) The moon affects the nature of marriage depending upon whether it is in a bicorporeal or single sign. (4:5.)
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:


Waning moons usually indicate some serious diminution of character and misfortunes.

So this is more detailed than modern moon-sign material.


well that covers approx have the worlds population, lol...

this trad stuff that got dredged up in the 90's is the new 'modern moon-sign material'... ps - i am selling traditional astro caps for anyone who wants one for a small price....
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waybread



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Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, have you got a copy of Firmicus Maternus? There are a couple of exceptions to his general principle that a waning moon is up to no good.

The full moon in a sign's terms or decan of Venus creates some sort of sexual pervert (!) but the waning moon indicates "good deeds, great increases in fortune, &c. (Could be a misprint??)

Having read about planting and doing various other agricultural activities by moon signs, I would say as a general rule that there's a certain amount of sympathetic magic involving moon phases. Waxing generally indicates an increase, and waning indicates a decrease, but it's a bit more complicated when you get to specific plants and tasks.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi waybread,

thanks.. yes - have a copy of fm and have read it, along with many of the 'trad' books.. i think the stereo types on modern work for trad too, but that is a separate topic best for the philo section here.. regarding terms - you have 3 different sets to choose from, lol... gotta dig that! but, i digress - i think there are any number of ways to get more 'moon traits' then just by tropical or sidereal zodiac sign.. i like looking at the nature of the planets the moon makes to other planets, and i also like looking at midpoints.. none of that fits into the topic at hand here though..

i think phases of the moon is very relevant.. plant root veggies by the waning moon, but above ground first half and stuff like that.. i prune in the last half of the phase, but won't when the moon is in cancer regardless.. stuff like that.. i don't like what i perceive as certain pigeon holing of moon phase into a good bad thing and although there are exceptions, the generalization seems to be carried thru for the most part - new to full - good.. full to new - bad... i don't dig that myself!! glad we are talking on the waxing phase, lol..
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for your replies. I do have Neugebauer and two editions of Firmicus.

I was really asking about the type of traits that (as far as I know) first appeared in Alan Leo's books. Here in part is what he says about the Moon in Aries:

"This makes the person an enthusiast in some direction; impulsive, aggressive and militant in manner, sometimes irritable and liable to fits of anger. Insists on having his own way; disobedient to superiors; independent and self-reliant. Somewhat volatile and changeable..."
Astrology for All, Alan Leo, p. 64 (copyright Edinburgh: International Publishing Company, 1964.)

Leo goes on and on in a long paragraph for the Moon in each of the 12 signs. As far as I know this type of 'trait' Moon-in-sign delineation began with Leo. Was he the inventor of general sign traits for the Moon which now routinely appear in popular astrological books?

The Firmicus material (which I didn't remember) is interesting, but it's a different kind of delineation (and related to terms and decans) than traits Leo and those after him associate with the Moon in zodiac signs.
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waybread



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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe, but FM's material on personality does go by planets-in-signs first. Then you look and see what planet in the sign of interest rules the moon's term and decan.

I just found something in Tetrabiblos 3:13, where Ptolemy says that Mercury and the moon are key planets for determining the quality of the soul (personality.) The "solstitial" (cardinal) signs [including Aries] "produce souls fitted for dealing with the people, fond of turbulence and political activity, glory-seeking," and also "fitted for astrology and divination."

Then we find Leo says the moon in Aries that is comparable in its martial qualities, leadership, but also, "mysticism or occultism of some kind may show in his life...."

Just to throw a spanner in the works, you're aware of the debate about whether the Hellenistic astrologers used whole signs. Assuming this to be the case in many delineations, it's a bit hard to distinguish signs and houses in all instances.

I've got an old copy of Leo's How to Judge a Nativity Although longer, his moon in Aries seems much like what you cited-- not such a great placement. Sort of the "bad Aries." But if we read his sun in Aries "recipe," we get the "good Aries" that reads a lot like old delineations of the sun exalted in Aries.

Something else that Alan Leo did, was to conflate signs and houses. So the sun in Taurus "is favourable for the acquisition of money." The moon in Taurus is more conservative and subdued, but it also "favours the acquisition of money." The sun and moon in Gemini also seem similar, based on either a Mercury rulership(??) or meanings of the 3rd house.

In his section on the rising sign, he also delineates "decanates." He associates differences between them to the ruling planets.

Alan Leo might well have packaged moon signs (and planets in signs generally) more and better than his predecessors. But his predecessors were there, and it's hard to get away from how heavily Leo seems to draw on earlier sources' delineations of planets, signs, and houses. Maybe his talent was in writing clear and easy to follow cookbooks.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread wrote:
Quote:
(...) Alan Leo might well have packaged moon signs (and planets in signs generally) more and better than his predecessors. But his predecessors were there, and it's hard to get away from how heavily Leo seems to draw on earlier sources' delineations of planets, signs, and houses. Maybe his talent was in writing clear and easy to follow cookbooks.

Waybread, thanks for citing those references, and suggesting they could have influenced Leo's delineations of the Moon and planets in signs. You introduced some very interesting links to the old texts. It's frustrating that in Leo's time it wasn't common to include bibliographies in the back of astrological books. So we'll never know for sure what ancient writings and other sources might have influenced Leo. We do know that he was influenced by Theosophy, however, but that's another topic. Anyhow, thank you for this dip into history! I would never have thought to make those connections.
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waybread



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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Therese.

On reflection, modern astrologers did a whole lot more with planets-in-signs than the Hellenists did. I've not studied medieval or Renaissance (early modern) astrology, so there may be more in those sources.
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SGFoxe



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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the Romans of the period of Augustus's birth 63 bc ... eg before Julius changed the calendar from lunar based to solar prefaced by the 445 day year of confusion 46BC they defined themselves by their lunar sign rather than solar sign ... which, in Octavian's case determined him as a solar Virgo rather than a Libra, his birthdate being cuspy ... his father had his chart done at his birth and was early proclaimed Caesar's heir ... Julius was a full moon type with his moon also in Capricorn ... ... the cap moon could have been conjunct Livia's sun, rectifying her chart difficult, she may have been an Aquarian ... but given the sudden nature of the start of their scandalous relationship, moon conjunct her sun believable.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/46963/46963-h/46963-h.htm

I haven't had time to look through the free book by Sepharial at project Gutenberg, linked above. I seem to think I have read a book by him which describes the Sun and Moon in the signs. I am not sure if he came before Alan Leo, or maybe he was a contemporary. Sepharial was a Theosophist too.


Quote:
CHAPTER IV
HOW TO READ CHARACTER AND DISPOSITION

Ptolemy says: “Mercury is the ruler of the rational soul, the Moon of the animal soul.” ....


That is a good enough reason to study the Moon signs.
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waybread



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Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGFoxe wrote:
the Romans of the period of Augustus's birth 63 bc ... eg before Julius changed the calendar from lunar based to solar prefaced by the 445 day year of confusion 46BC they defined themselves by their lunar sign rather than solar sign ... which, in Octavian's case determined him as a solar Virgo rather than a Libra, his birthdate being cuspy ... his father had his chart done at his birth and was early proclaimed Caesar's heir ... Julius was a full moon type with his moon also in Capricorn ... ... the cap moon could have been conjunct Livia's sun, rectifying her chart difficult, she may have been an Aquarian ... but given the sudden nature of the start of their scandalous relationship, moon conjunct her sun believable.


This is fascinating, because the Babylonian zodiac went by the path of the moon, rather than the sun. At some point during a little-known period of ancient astrology, horoscopic astrology became solar-based.

Can you post some references on your information?
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