skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Hillary Clinton's Birth time
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Mundane Astrology & World Events
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 884
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:26 am    Post subject: Hillary Clinton's Birth time Reply with quote

As of this writing, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are running about even in the polls for the presidency of the United States. Her birth time is unknown. The Astrodienst Astro-DataBank gives it as 8:02 am, with a Rodden DD rating, meaning that it cannot be considered reliable. Several other birth times are proposed and in circulation among astrologers.

I've worked with Clinton's chart to some extent, and think the 8:02 am birth time has a lot of traction.

You can find her natal chart at:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Clinton,_Hillary

Other relevant charts might be the US Sibly ("birth day") chart at:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Clinton,_Hillary

The US Constitution:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Clinton,_Hillary

These charts are speculative but widely used.

Dates of note are the historical general election on November 8, 2016, although today most states allow early voting.

The Electoral College meets on January 6, 2017. (The US presidency is not decided by national direct popular vote, but by state-wide popular votes. These are converted into Electoral College ballots, roughly proportional in number to the states' population.)

January 20 is the date for the inauguration.

In recent memory, the Bush vs. Gore election of 2000 was so close that the outcome was not determined until December 12, 2000.

On a lighter note, I sometimes have "fun with asteroids." I'm not making up these asteroid names: you can find them in the Astrodienst free charts pages.

I note that with the 8:02 am chart, Clinton has asteroid Hillary conjunct her MC (1 degree orb.) Asteroid Whitehouse conjuncts her IC, which would be the cusp of the 4th house of "home" in a quadrant house system. She lived in the White House for 8 years as First Lady.

On inauguration day 2017 solar arc

asteroid "Hillary" and Clinton's MC conjunct her natal Venus.

Uranus makes a partile conjunction to her MC/asteroid Hillary.

Saturn makes a partile conjunction to her sun.

Neptune makes a partile trine to her sun

I could go on in this fashion. The solar arc chart shows a lot of hits, some favourable, some challenging. I'm not predicting Clinton's win or loss, because either way, her day will be history-making, or powerfully bittersweet. When we find the angles involved, however, it suggests a "hit" of interest in a chart rectification.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 884
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am copying this post from the more general US presidential election thread.

Re: Clinton's broken arm in 2009:

Let's look at some rulerships.

According to Ridder-Fitzpatrick, Handbook of Medical Astrology, the elbow bone is at 24 degrees Gemini.

In modern astrology, Uranus rules "sudden upsets" such as accidents.

Natally Clinton has Uranus at 25 Gemini 55'. With the 8:02 am birth time her moon is at 22 Pisces 51'; a square with a 3-degree orb. I would therefore assume that Clinton's elbow/mid-arm or feet (tripping) might be vulnerable. (25 degrees Gemini is the radius.)

Clinton broke her elbow in a fall on June 17, 2009.

On that date she had transiting:

Uranus at 26 Pisces 32' conjunct natal moon (4 degree orb) and square natal Uranus (within 1 degree orb.)

Sun partile conjunct natal Uranus.

On that date she had progressed:

moon partile conjunct natal Uranus.

Mars conjunct MC (1.5 degree orb)

Chiron conjunct Mercury (1 degree orb)

I think Clinton might be a bit of a klutz. In modern astrology Chiron shows us "where it hurts," be it emotionally or physically. (I broke my ankle when transiting Chiron conjuncted my natal Mercury (rules walking) in Aquarius (rules the ankles.)

Clinton's natal sun-Mercury near- midpoint in Scorpio pretty closesly opposes the near-midpoint of her Uranus (sudden upsets)-Pisces (rules the feet) midpoint in Taurus. Put differently using far-midpoints, they're conjunct at 9 degrees of Taurus and Scorpio.

On Clinton's accident day, transiting Mars and Venus, at 11 and 10 degrees Taurus, respectively, were pretty close.

But Clinton's chart seems especially sensitive to Uranus. Both because of this accident timing, and also because on November 8, Clinton's solar arc Uranus conjuncts her MC. Either being elected president or missing out are real MC matters subject to Uranian sudden change.

(Trump's chart, Rodden AA, shows Uranus square MC on November 8.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4924
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread the links above to the Sibly and US Constitution chart are incorrect and just show Clinton's chart again.

You seem to have put the cart before the horse here by immediately honing in on one chart time. Admittedly the most popular time amongst astrologers at present. Still, this isn't the kind of open ended discussion on Clinton's birth time/rectified chart I had planned to have.

I still intend to open a separate thread as a resource for rectification by astrologers by offering a list of numerous key events Clinton's life. As I am not really in tune with your approach here I will keep my research separate for a different thread I will open as a tool for astrologers seeking to research the topic in future. I may also lock the new thread.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2686
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

from the us election 2016 thread.....

waybread wrote:
James, we disagree. I think the timing of a presidential candidate's chart is just critical to a lot of the mundane work we do to predict election outcomes. It makes a huge difference.

I might start another thread on rectifying Clinton's chart, but see no reason to keep it confidential. Please disregard any of my public posts that do not appeal to you, and move on to the ones that do.

If the mods disagree, of course, that's their call.


waybread.. no, we don't disagree on the relevance of the timing of a presidential candidates chart.. setting up straw men to knock them down might be fun for you though! what we disagree with is talking about which speculative chart for hillary one or another poster feels compelled to discuss on the usa election 2016 thread..

in fact, i am happy to talk about the rectification process, but have to agree with mark in his view on how you are going about this...

Mark wrote:

You seem to have put the cart before the horse here by immediately honing in on one chart time. Admittedly the most popular time amongst astrologers at present. Still, this isn't the kind of open ended discussion on Clinton's birth time/rectified chart I had planned to have.


thanks for starting an independent thread to discuss why you think 802am is the preferred chart for hillary..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1142
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never had the impression that Waybread started this topic only to support an AM birth time. I think it was a misunderstanding of her purpose to think otherwise.

Waybread, could you please give the exact positions (degree and minute) of the asteroids you are using? I've never used asteroids, and might have a bit of trouble locating the ones you mentioned. Any aspects to the MC/IC axis are important because that axis is almost exactly flipped between the AM and PM charts.

I think for this discussion we need to be very precise about the position of planets, including asteroids, as the orb differences between tropical and sidereal positions are important. So "partile conjunction" needs to include the degrees and minutes of both bodies being discussed. For example, taking the moment when Hillary broke her elbow in a fall:

Here are the PM precessed (tropical) and non-precessed (sidereal) orbs at 5 PM in the State Department's basement garage (AP news release) on the day Hillary fell and broke her elbow, 17 June 2009:

25 Gem 55 Uranus natal tropical (AM time 56' R)
26 Gem 47 Sun transit tropical (orb 52')

2 Gem 53 Uranus natal sidereal K
2 Gem 48 Sun transit sidereal (orb 5')

Sun rules the 3rd PM sidereal house (arms and hands) AND the 8 PM tropical house, and it was the transiting Sun that so closely conjoined natal Uranus when Hillary fell and broke her elbow.

When I have the tropical position of the asteroids, I want to see how they align with the flipped MC/IC angles of Hillary's chart.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm


Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 884
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Waybread the links above to the Sibly and US Constitution chart are incorrect and just show Clinton's chart again.

You seem to have put the cart before the horse here by immediately honing in on one chart time. Admittedly the most popular time amongst astrologers at present. Still, this isn't the kind of open ended discussion on Clinton's birth time/rectified chart I had planned to have.

I still intend to open a separate thread as a resource for rectification by astrologers by offering a list of numerous key events Clinton's life. As I am not really in tune with your approach here I will keep my research separate for a different thread I will open as a tool for astrologers seeking to research the topic in future. I may also lock the new thread.

Mark


Sorry, Mark-- dunno what happened with the links. But if people are interested prior to my having time to get back there, they can search them on the Astro-DataBank.

I had no intention of limiting discussion of Clinton's birth time to 8:02 am!!! I just thought I'd use it to kick off the thread!

By all means, if you or others have worked with other TOB's and feel they have merit, I would love to see your work. Here or separately.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 884
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Waybread, could you please give the exact positions (degree and minute) of the asteroids you are using? I've never used asteroids, and might have a bit of trouble locating the ones you mentioned. Any aspects to the MC/IC axis are important because that axis is almost exactly flipped between the AM and PM charts.

I think for this discussion we need to be very precise about the position of planets, including asteroids, as the orb differences between tropical and sidereal positions are important. So "partile conjunction" needs to include the degrees and minutes of both bodies being discussed. For example, taking the moment when Hillary broke her elbow in a fall:

Here are the PM precessed (tropical) and non-precessed (sidereal) orbs at 5 PM in the State Department's basement garage (AP news release) on the day Hillary fell and broke her elbow, 17 June 2009:

25 Gem 55 Uranus natal tropical (AM time 56' R)
26 Gem 47 Sun transit tropical (orb 52')

2 Gem 53 Uranus natal sidereal K
2 Gem 48 Sun transit sidereal (orb 5')

When I have the tropical position of the asteroids, I want to see how they align with the flipped MC/IC angles of Hillary's chart.


Therese, when I have a minute I'll get back to your questions/comments.

Basically you can find an automatic ephemeris for any of the over 22,000 named asteroids at Astrodienst, on their free charts pages. Just scroll down to the bottom of the page where you select your type of chart, and then click on a link line at the bottom. You will come up with the asteroid list, and can click on the ones of interest. These will appear, with degrees and minutes, in the constructed chart and the aspectarian.

I suppose Demetra George is the expert on asteroids. I learned a lot from her writings. Basically, some of us have had luck in working with "namesake" asteroids. Not everybody has an asteroid with his/her same name, but many people do. There is an asteroid Hillary, and even an asteroid Billary, for example. I think you can also use cognate names in other languages: these seem to work, as well. (Example: John=Ian=Ivan=Juan=Jan=Jean, &c.)

With asteroids, I use only the conjunction to a planet or angle, and a narrow orb. Otherwise you can end up with too much "space junk."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1142
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread wrote:
Quote:
Basically you can find an automatic ephemeris for any of the over 22,000 named asteroids at Astrodienst, on their free charts pages. Just scroll down to the bottom of the page where you select your type of chart, and then click on a link line at the bottom. You will come up with the asteroid list, and can click on the ones of interest. These will appear, with degrees and minutes, in the constructed chart and the aspectarian.

Waybread, I will need more specific instructions. I get totally lost on Astrodiesnt with all the colored graphics, pop-up ads and activity. I've never been able to find the place where chart information is entered. If you don't want to reply here, you can PM me. Direct links would help. Thanks.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 884
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Briefly, Therese (company's coming!)-- I'll post the instructions here because someone else may be interested.

1. Astrodiesnt: www.astro.com
2. Click on "free horoscopes"-- upper left
3. Log in
4. Scroll down to the bottom right of the "free horoscopes" page. Click on "extended chart selection."
5. If you've archived any charts there, your page will come up. I've saved Clinton's chart to my collection there. If you've not done this, look up Clinton's chart on the Astro-DataBank, and save it to your computer. You can edit her natal data to change the birth time, if you wish. Or just start your own new chart and save it.
6.Hopefully Hillary Clinton shows up at the top, where it says, Horoscope for: or scroll down if need be till her name is in the box.
7. Scroll down to the bottom of the page, where you see a box in which to input asteroids-- by number. If you don't know the number, click on the line that says, "Asteroid name/number list." A new window will open.
8. Click on the asteroids you want, or you could input the asteroids in the box by number manually if you know them off hand. "Hillary" is 3130, for example. If it looks goofy when you've run the chart, double-check your asteroid number/s.
9. Select the type of chart you want, such as natal chart with transits. where it says, "Please select a chart type."
10. Click on the button to display the chart.

This should work.

Note that Astrodienst also has fixed stars options, maps with planetary lines, and other cool stuff that might help with your rectification efforts. It won't do primary directions, or other sophisticated methods. You would need software to identify relevant asteroids by degree: I just do the "needle in a haystack" methodology. But it does have the basics-- plus.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1142
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Waybread. Your instructions should help a lot. You have company coming, and I have limited time today, but I'll be back to this topic as soon as possible. When you have time, please post the degree, sign and minutes for asteroids Whitehouse and Hillary, as those two asteroids are fascinating indeed.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1142
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found the Astrodienst chart calculation page, but it was all extremely cumbersome compared to using my own software. So when you have time, Waybread, I'll wait for the tropical (natal) positions of asteroids Hillary and Whitehouse. I couldn't deal with a megabyte sized file for all the asteroids.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 884
Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Therese--

Using the 8:02 am birth time, tropical zodiac Clinton's natal asteroids map out at:

Hillary (#3130) 6 Virgo 01' 22"

William (#270373) 28 Capricorn 4' 6"

Billary (#228136) 3 Sagittarius 15' 27"

Whitehouse (#4036) 5 Pisces 35' 41" (retrograde)

With an 8:02 pm birth time:

Hillary: 6 Virgo 10' 50"

William: 28 Capricorn 17' 4"

Billary: 3 Sagittarius 30' 17"

Whitehouse: 5 Pisces 35' 14" (retrograde)

In Astrodienst's sidereal (Fagan-Bradley) zodiac option, the placements are:

Hillary: 12 Leo 0' 56"

Billary: 9 Scorpio 15' 1"

William: 4 Capricon 3'39"

Whitehouse: 11 Aquarius 35' 14"

They have a big list of other sidereal zodiacs, mostly Hindu, so if you are looking for one in particular, I'll see if they've got it.

If you want to give Astrodienst another try, you don't have to download the entire list of asteroids. Just input the above numbers in that box at the bottom of the free charts page.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 884
Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Waybread the links above to the Sibly and US Constitution chart are incorrect and just show Clinton's chart again.

.....

Mark


Mark, I went back to check on the US founding event charts, and turns out that there are 14 of them listed in the Astrodienst Astro-DataBank. Rather than link all of them here, I would suggest that interested people simply go to www.astro.com, log in, head back to the home page, click on Astro-DataBank, and then search for "Nation: USA." If you do that, then you have the option of saving the charts for further prognostications. The date is usually pegged to or just before the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

I thought there was only one Sibly chart (earliest known event chart for the establishment of the USA.) But it turns out his time is in dispute. Then subsequent astrologers have looked to earlier events.

I might point out for non-Americans that the Declaration of 1776 merely announces independence from Britain. The actual structure of the US government, with the president, VP, and two houses of Congress, was formalized in the Constitution, after the conclusion of the war for independence.

Numbers 9 and 5 deal with the Constitution. The Constitution was signed by its interim legislators in 1787, put to the states for votes, and then enacted into law when New Hampshire became the 13th state to ratify it on June 21, 1788.

This all makes selecting the national chart most relevant to predicting an election outcome a complicated and somewhat subjective matter.

There is some interesting texts with these charts, for those who like to combine astrology and history.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4924
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread wrote:
Quote:
Mark, I went back to check on the US founding event charts, and turns out that there are 14 of them listed in the Astrodienst Astro-DataBank. Rather than link all of them here, I would suggest that interested people simply go to www.astro.com, log in, head back to the home page, click on Astro-DataBank, and then search for "Nation: USA." If you do that, then you have the option of saving the charts for further prognostications. The date is usually pegged to or just before the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

I thought there was only one Sibly chart (earliest known event chart for the establishment of the USA.) But it turns out his time is in dispute. Then subsequent astrologers have looked to earlier events.


No need for people to knock themselves out googling ADB Waybread! I put together a locked thread a couple of years ago that listed all the potential charts for the USA with links to ADB. I also listed some potential charts ADB omits.

And yes you can derive a 04.50pm, 5.10pm or 12.10pm chart from Sibly's data!

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8343&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2686
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:

This all makes selecting the national chart most relevant to predicting an election outcome a complicated and somewhat subjective matter.


thanks waybread.. good to know choosing from either a list of 14 usa charts (on adb), or a list of 27 thanks marks work on skyscript is a necessary requirement to get a firm leg up on a prediction!! the operative word here is 'firm' lol.. if saturn gets in my way, it will be infirm!

here i was worried about choosing from 1 out of approx 5 or 6 potential hillary clinton times, only to find out i have to sift thru another potential 27 charts to gain the confidence necessary to open my big fat mouth, lol... i'm just looking for a little comedy to make this rectification and prediction business more enjoyable and rewarding.. you've provided it!

i think the only thing missing in my toolbox is having to figure out if i need to look at these charts in tropical or sidereal.. this might tip the balance or leave me hanging!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Mundane Astrology & World Events All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated