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Assassinated Presidents and the 1842 Great Mutation.
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 183
Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I forgot to mention that the Great Mutation of 1842 was at 8 degrees Capricorn 54 opposing the sidereal position of the Beehive Cluster and Praesepe!
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Donald Trump's Mercury is 8 degrees Cancer 51 minutes and his Moon is 21 degrees Sagittarius 12 minutes, and his Moon's North Node is 20 degrees Gemini 45 minutes, and his Phaethon is 20 degrees Sagittarius, which are all being activated by Chiron in 21 degrees Pisces and Jupiter in 9 degrees Libra around late October.

I was looking at that giant Uranus Neptune Moon's Nodes transit, and that doesn't seem to touch Donald Trump's chart.

There are two big transit patterns relating to the degree areas you are describing, going on at the same time just before and around the time of the US election. One does affect Donald Trump's chart, which definitely has the 9 degrees of the Cardinal signs pattern, but the other which affects 9 degrees of the Mutable signs doesn't affect him.

His running mate for vice president is Mike Pence, born June 7th 1959.
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Mike_Pence
He has Mercury 21 degrees Gemini 46 minutes, antiscion 8 degrees Cancer 14 minutes, and mean Moon's North Node 9 degrees Libra 44 minutes. No time of birth known, so his Moon could be close to his Mercury.

Thanks for pointing that out, it is important.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicki, I've been too busy today to spend time on this forum topic, but I checked a few of your "sidereal" fixed stars, and am puzzled. I'm not sure where those positions came from? Any sidereal star list has to be calculated from a particular ayanamsa, and you didn't give one.

Any star measured in the tropical zodiac has to correlate with a particular DATE in time.

Any star in a sidereal zodiac has to be associated with a particular AYANAMSA. So there's no such thing as a "sidereal" star without an ayanamsa used for measurement.

Skyscipt hasn't been working quite right, and that's why some of us are getting double posts. In the last few days I've noticed that either the preview or "submit" screen doesn't come up, and the typing window just sits there. Then when we can finally post, sometimes the message will come up twice.

Can you please give the page number in the Morse book where he talks about 19 degrees of Scorpio?

I'm sorry, I have to delay responding to this topic until later. I have to more carefully read posts before replying.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1191
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicki wrote:
Quote:
I study what might be called "astromythology" so my instinct is always to look at the mythology of the fixed stars and I look to the sidereal position of the fixed stars for an "explanation".

Vicki, I'm still not understanding what you mean by "sidereal" position of stars. Do you mean the constellation of the star? Since you work in the tropical zodiac, any star degree position has to be calculated for the date you are checking. The degree will change over time for any star. So, for example if you are looking at stars for a 1776 USA chart and for Donald Trump, you will have two degree positions for Aldebaran, one for each date. Any star degree in the tropical zodiac has to have a date attached.

But Aldebaran will always be in the constellation of Taurus, so that might be what you mean by "sidereal." There won't be any "sidereal" degree position unless you're working in a sidereal zodiac. This is why I'm confused by your star list whose degrees don't conform to the commonly used sidereal ayanamsas.

I also look at the mythology of the stars and constellations as aids to interpretation.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1191
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicki wrote:
Quote:
Also I forgot to mention that the Great Mutation of 1842 was at 8 degrees Capricorn 54 opposing the sidereal position of the Beehive Cluster and Praesepe!

The mystery of "sidereal position" deepens!

Sidereal Praesepe is always at 13 Cancer 34 with the Krishnamurti ayanmsa. Six minutes less with Lahiri, 59 minutes less (12 Cancer 35) with the SVP ayanamsa.

In 1842 Praesepe was at 5 Leo 08 in the tropical zodiac.
In 2000 Praesepe was at 7 Leo 20 in the tropical zodiac.

It's not possible for the tropical 1842 mutation to oppose Praesepe. We can't combine tropical and sidereal positions. We have to stay within one framework or the other.
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese

Eric Morse refers to the "accursed" degree on Page 78 of "The Living Stars"

Yes I know the tropical positions of Praesepe as you set them out.

You said :-

"We can't combine tropical and sidereal positions. We have to stay within one framework or the other."

I am not trying to combine both positions as such, Therese. What I am saying is that there are certain degrees (such as that accursed degree) which symbolically always remain the same or some would say "do not precess".
Robert Tillett of astrologycom.com for instance refers to 19 Scorpio as a position which does not precess.

Another example would be the exaltation degrees - 19 Aries for instance.

I am just suggesting (not asserting categorically) that there might be other degrees that we could regard in this way such as the example of the recurring 8-9 degree we have been discussing on this thread and that it would be an interesting area for research.

The sidereal star positions I quote are based on Galactic Centre 0 degrees Sagittarius.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicki wrote:
Quote:
I am not trying to combine both positions as such...

But that's what you are doing when you say that the Mutation of 1842 in tropical Capricorn opposed Praesepe in sidereal Cancer. Praesepe is still in tropical Leo on that date, and that's where it sits. There is no opposition, no matter where Praesepe is in any sidereal zodiac.

The tropical zodiac moves with precession. If a degree in that zodiac remains sensitive to tested effects (say, 19 Scorpio), then that degree is precessing along with the tropical zodiac. As I've said before, that's an intriguing concept to research because it would indicate that the tropical zodiac is a reality rather than simply a measurement from the spring equinox.

The reason I'm staying with this topic is that students who read this forum can easily become confused, and (as a lifelong teacher, college teaching degree in 1964) I'm a stickler for astrological facts. My life has been devoted to clarifying astrological concepts. Astrology is so incredibly complex that it's easy to confuse concepts and techniques, especially when dealing with different zodiacs.
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese

It was never my intention to confuse anyone. I thought this was a forum for discussing different ideas not for teaching students. I may only have been posting on here recently, but astrology is a subject I too have been studying for many years, since the 1970s in fact.

The fact that there are myriad options for different schools of sidereal astrology is surely confusion in itself?

I do not accept that 19 Scorpio is precessing with the tropical zodiac. It is symbolic of its sidereal position, as I said, in this case, representing a cataclysm millennia ago, as outlined by no less a figure than Dr. Eric Morse.
It is important to me that it is recognised as such.

I am currently researching this subject to discover if there are indeed other degrees such as 19 Scorpio because they may inform us about our pre history.

I am also a student of archaeoastronomy and it was from work done on the astronomical alignments of the Zodiac clock at Nabta Playa in the Sahara desert that I worked out the Galactic Centre 0 degrees Sagittarius method of calculating the sidereal position of fixed stars.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicki wrote:
Quote:
The fact that there are myriad options for different schools of sidereal astrology is surely confusion in itself?

Most definitely! Except that ayanamsa differences don't reflect schools of astrology so much as methods of measurement.

Quote:
I do not accept that 19 Scorpio is precessing with the tropical zodiac. It is symbolic of its sidereal position, as I said, in this case, representing a cataclysm millennia ago, as outlined by no less a figure than Dr. Eric Morse.
It is important to me that it is recognised as such.


(Sigh...) If 19 Scorpio remains a sensitive degree in the tropical zodiac through the centuries, then it is precessing in relation to the stars in the sky.

Eric Morse associates "the accursed degree" with its one degree conjunction with the North Scale (Beta Libra) of the constellation of Libra. At the end of World War I (cited by Morse), the North Scale was at 18 degrees of tropical Scorpio and conjunct the Sun. The next day (as Morse mentions) the Sun was on 19 degrees of tropical Scorpio. Then Morse wrote:

"As a last comment on the North Scale and its notorious degree, the lady Kim..." (page 79)

So Morse links 19 tropical Scorpio on the dates he discusses with an actual star of the constellation of Libra. If so, "the accursed degree" is fixed in any sidereal zodiac, but changes degree position in the tropical zodiac. (Morse isn't completely clear on the permanent or temporary location of "the accursed degree" in the tropical zodiac since he discusses it in conjunction with the North Scale of Libra.)

Anyhow, the influence of stars and degrees is one of the more intriguing areas for astrological research. For anyone interested in the symbolism of stars, Eric Morse's The Living Stars (1988) is an interesting book to own. The book is out of print, but here in the US there are many used copies on Amazon.

Quote:
I am also a student of archaeoastronomy and it was from work done on the astronomical alignments of the Zodiac clock at Nabta Playa in the Sahara desert that I worked out the Galactic Centre 0 degrees Sagittarius method of calculating the sidereal position of fixed stars.

What a fascinating experience! Have you checked your degrees with others who have measured a sidereal zodiac from the Galactic Center?
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicki, although you've confused the issue somewhat by bringing in sidereal degrees, your main question is one that should concern all astrologers. Dropping the terms that cause confusion (precessed and non-precessed), the question is whether the symbolism of a degree remains constant through the centuries in the tropical zodiac.

You have given some examples in an attempt to show that symbolism does indeed remain constant in the tropical zodiac. The same question can be asked of anyone who uses a sidereal zodiac in their work. Is the symbolism of a single degree constant? (If not, then the symbolism is attached to the tropical zodiac.)

What is the origin of the "accursed degree" of 19 Scorpio? Did the mythology of this degree originate simply because it's the degree that is inconjunct (quincunx) the Sun's exaltation in 19 Aries?

Are there genuine exaltation degrees for the planets?? Can anyone supply evidence for this an any zodiac? Can three degrees of Taurus be demonstrated as the exaltation degree of the Moon, for example? Logic decrees that the exaltation degrees of planets (if they exist) can't operate in all zodiacs at the same time, including the tropical zodiac or more than one sidereal zodiac.

So while astrologers continue to add new celestial bodies and techniques in their work such as asteroids, midpoints and small "planets," very basic questions still remain unanswered. And this is why for now astrology can't be considered a science as the world understands the term. From the outside astrology appears to be a fantastic mix of diverse opinions, techniques and practices with little proof for anything at all.
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