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Learning Horary with Sidereal zodiac?

 
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RohanM



Joined: 11 Jun 2016
Posts: 11

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:53 pm    Post subject: Learning Horary with Sidereal zodiac? Reply with quote

I use Sidereal charts (Fagan Bradley) for my natal and event analyses. (Solar/Lunar returns etc) and I'm quite satisfied with the results.

Now I'd like to learn horary, but all the books recommended to me (Lilly, Frawley etc) seem to use the Tropical Zodiac. So my option are (a) either use these books (say Lilly vol 2) to learn technique, but use them with sidereal charts (b) look for books which deal with horary technique in terms of sidereal charts (suggestions welcome).

If anyone here practises horary with sidereal zodiac charts, I'd greatly appreciate tips on how to learn horary technique.

Thanks in advance.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really see the issue. Just read the Arabic material and use the Sidereal zodiac. Lilly was using those same sources via his predecessors.
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RohanM



Joined: 11 Jun 2016
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject: Thanks Conrad Reply with quote

I was thinking of reading *Lilly* and using his techniques (not the Arab material, which is a bit harder, even with Ben Dykes, translated books, at least to me. Lilly's english is archaic but much easier)

hmm so maybe I should wait till I level up enough to read Abu Masha'ar etc.
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Konrad



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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well there is no Abu Ma'shar horary material. If you get On Reception by Masha'allah, you'll get it in no time. I actually found it a lot more simple than the Medieval and Renaissance Latin stuff.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RohanM wrote:
Quote:
I use Sidereal charts (Fagan Bradley) for my natal and event analyses. (Solar/Lunar returns etc) and I'm quite satisfied with the results.

Now I'd like to learn horary, but all the books recommended to me (Lilly, Frawley etc) seem to use the Tropical Zodiac. So my option are (a) either use these books (say Lilly vol 2) to learn technique, but use them with sidereal charts (b) look for books which deal with horary technique in terms of sidereal charts (suggestions welcome).

Horary principles are fairly standard, so you can take horary concepts from classical works or modern texts and simply apply them in the sidereal zodiac. It's fine to study Olivia Barclay's Horary Astrology Rediscovered (1990), and Anne Ungar and Lillian Huber's The Horary Reference Book (ACS Publications, 1984) is a helpful reference to topics.

But why are you using the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa? From what I've been able to ascertain, the few remaining astrologers who have adopted that ayanamsa don't accept horary astrology as valid. Then for anyone who decides to look into India's Lahiri ayanamsa and sidereal astrology, there's a complex horary system with partial roots in western classical astrology. But any sidereal zodiac or ayanamsa can be used with traditional western horary principles.

If you are using Lilly, by far the most attractive and readable publication is the USA Astrology Classics edition (2005) printed by David Roell. It's best to obtain a copy now as that two-book set may not be reprinted. It's a superior edition in all ways.
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RohanM



Joined: 11 Jun 2016
Posts: 11

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:06 am    Post subject: Thank You Reply with quote

Konrad
"On reception" . Got it. Trying to source now.

Therese,
I use Fagan Bradley because it gives me *excellent* results with respect to timing events with solar and lunar returns, and (with Placidus houses) in analyzing natal charts. I am *not* a professional astrologer, and have limited time to spend on astrology, so when something works so reliably for me, I prefer to stick with it.

Thank you for your book recommendations. Highly appreciated.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are welcome. On Reception is part of Ben Dykes' Works of Sahl and Masha'allah, and I think Robert Hand published it as a standalone text.

As for your choice of measurement system, I use pretty much the same (Aldebaran is 15 Taurus) and I too get great results. As we are talking about horary, using either it or Lahiri won't make too much difference as there is less than a degree between them.
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RohanM



Joined: 11 Jun 2016
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:47 am    Post subject: I just ordered the Ben Dykes book Reply with quote

It will take a while to get here (shipping to India is time consuming) but it looks like a great book. (thanks Konrad!)
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Quote:
On Reception is part of Ben Dykes' Works of Sahl and Masha'allah, and I think Robert Hand published it as a standalone text.

Yes, that book can be ordered from Rob Hand's web site for about $19. http://www.arhatmedia.com/bookstore.html

But you get a lot more for your money by buying the big Ben Dykes book.

Quote:
As for your choice of measurement system, I use pretty much the same (Aldebaran is 15 Taurus) and I too get great results. As we are talking about horary, using either it or Lahiri won't make too much difference as there is less than a degree between them.

It's true that using any ayanamsa will give the same results in timing with solar and lunar returns, but Dasa timing will be different depending on the ayanamsa. The only difference in timing using horary is if a planet happens to be at the very beginning or end of a sign. Then the ayanamsa becomes important. So that's an area for research. I used the Fagan-Bradley (SVP) ayanamsa before studying India's astrology.
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rohan

I'm not a sidereal astrologer, but I cannot see any real problem here. We can use techniques like aspects and sign dignities and apply them to the sidereal zodiac or the tropical zodiac - there is a level to which certain things which apply to the zodiac are not necessarily determined by the zodiac calculation itself. Of course it's a matter of debate and dispute and people on both sides can argue that some particular technique or approach is meant to be envisioned in one zodiac or another.

As for horary, your best bet is to simply learn the horary techniques and then apply them to the zodiac of your choice and see where you get to. One thing I would caution against however is retranslating the zodiacs used by other authors into the sidereal zodiac - same for house systems. Open yourself to being adaptive to go with whatever preference a particular astrologer has who is trying to teach the technique. When it comes time for you to cast your own charts, you don't need to follow their preferences of course. Sometimes when we look at natal charts which one astrologer casts in tropical, it can be straight forward to recast it in sidereal - try to avoid this for horary charts by created by others.

I would echo Konrad's suggestion to just read the older material and learn the techniques and apply them in your own zodiac. My preference would be Bonatti, as I find his use of technical vocabulary to be much more clear than Lilly, but then when you feel you have the hang of what is going on, read Lilly and his examples and just read whatever charts he has rather than translate them to the sidereal zodiac. Like Konrad though, I'm also a big fan of 'On Reception' too.

Remember, horary is much more a divinatory art than something like natal astrology, so our compulsions to imagine a "one true zodiac" which we apply to natal astrology so frequently, may not be as impressive in horary, I suspect that using a symbolic language and understanding that is sensible and meaningful to you is more important - if for you that is the sidereal zodiac, use it, if for Lilly it was the tropical zoidac, respect that and understand the techniques all the same. There are very few things which *clearly* and unequivocally meant in one zodiac. The only thing that springs to mind is the concept of the antiscion and contrantiscion - don't get into the habit of 'mirroring' along the cardinal points as these are explicitly tropical in nature, so you'd have to adjust them for a sidereal frame of reference if you want to take these into consideration.
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RohanM



Joined: 11 Jun 2016
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:37 pm    Post subject: Paul this is great advice Reply with quote

Thank You.

I don't intend to translate zodiacs when reading books by authors who use a specific zodiac. I intend to take the chart as given and learn the technique. So for Lilly, this would be Tropical + Regiomontanus, for Mashallah, Whole House signs, and so on. All good.

Once I have a basic grip on horary technique, I plan to do lots of horary practice with questions asked by friends and family, for which I'll use my sidereal zodiac. I am *not* a professional astrologer, so I have zero fear of failure etc, which should help improve.

I also intend to work through recorded horary charts (so I can check answers and improve my technique) from various books on horary. Here too, I don't intend to translate into my preferred zodiac, but rather go with whatever charts/house systems etc the recorder/author has used. This should help me refine my technique.

Your point about this being a divinatory systems is a very good one, and well taken

Thanks again,
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anseeg45



Joined: 07 Sep 2016
Posts: 3

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rohan,

I have always wondered the same thing since my interest in astrology was due to Vedic which uses Sidereal, but I now have a decent enough understanding of Tropical to explore this system of horary. However, I am so used to using whole signs, that I was wondering if it would be OK to use Western/Arabic horary techniques on Sidereal whole sign charts.

Anyway, on a slightly different note, you say that you've gotten excellent timing results with Fagan Bradley and Placidus. I have only ever used Lahiri and whole signs in Sidereal, but am extremely interested in finding a technique and system that yields accurate timing results. I am very intrigued by your statement and would love it if you could throw more light on how you use this system with Solar/Lunar returns to time events!
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RohanM



Joined: 11 Jun 2016
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:49 am    Post subject: Sure, anseeg, Reply with quote

First,I am strictly an amateur astrologer and *not* an expert in any sense of the word! So please take everything below with appropriate doses of salt!

I'm just starting to learn horary and while *learning* I use Regiomontanus and Tropical Zodiac to analyze the textbook examples, because that is what Lilly (whose book I'm learning from) uses, but for the few personal horaries I've cast, the Sidereal chart works just as well. Once I've learned the basic technique, I do plan to stick to Sidereal with Fagan ayanamsha, as I detailed above

I use Placidus, and not Whole Signs, just because that is what I'm used to. I *suspect* Whole Signs would work just as well, and I know one excellent astrologer who does exactly that.

As to using Solar and Lunar Returns to time events, the basic theory is in books by Fagan and James Eshelman.

But an excellent shortcut is to work through this thread here on skyscript recreating all the charts on Solar Fire and following along with Steve's explanations. This gives you the essence of the method.

The mainstream (if such a word is appropriate) Western Siderialists focus on angular planets (In both natal and return charts) and partile aspects and mostly ignore houses, signs, dignities etc. I happily use all.

I think Eshelman and co use Koch houses, and not Placidus. but I think the angles don't change that much (or at all) so I stick with Placidus, and it works for me.

Fwiw, I am personally not as 'psychological' as the classical Faganians (is that a word?) who congregate on the Solunar's forum (which is a great place to ask questions and get clarifications on technique) The basic idea I've taken from the Fagan folks is the focus on angular planets and partile aspects ,and Solar and Lunar Returns as the core of my practice. I do use signs, dignities etc, as I said above. In my opinion, there is too much psychobabble in modern astrology, and (again in my opinion) accurate prediction is what separates the useful bits from the useless.

Fwiw I started with Vedic astrology too (and didn't get anywhere,which is another story!) . Right now I"m working through Morin and Lilly, and interestingly enough this has enabled me to grasp some of what the Vedic astrology books were trying to convey! One day (far in the future! Tongue Out ) I'll get back to Vedic.

For now, I'm focusing on working through Lilly and Morin, (and once I finish these , the Greek/Arab writers)

Cheers,
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RohanM wrote:
Quote:
For now, I'm focusing on working through Lilly and Morin, (and once I finish these , the Greek/Arab writers)

I've mentioned this in an earlier post, but a truly excellent book on horary astrology is Olivia Barclay's Horary Astrology Rediscovered (1990). For references she has used Lilly, Morin, and other classical texts. Because she bases her concepts on classical authors, her book, written in plain easy-to-read English, helps to make those older authors much easier to understand. Barclay's book can be used hand-in-hand while studying Lilly and Morin. The book also has an excellent Forward written by Robert Hand and comprehensive notes and bibliography.

As for timing, any ayanamsa will give exactly the same results in solar and lunar returns since it's the angles and close aspects that matter the most. Transits will also be exactly the same with any ayanamsa.

However, in horary the zodiac and ayanamsa matter since the first and last degrees of signs are important. As horary astrology is most likely attuned to the consciousness of the astrologer, there is no ayanamsa question for tropical astrologers, but sidereal astrologers will ultimately have to test ayanamsas to choose the one that gives the most accurate degrees for the beginning and ending of signs.

Lahiri and the SVP (Fagan-Bradley) ayanamsas are the basic choices today. Some of us have found Krishnamurti more accurate than Lahiri, but the difference is small, less than 6 minutes. For solar ingress charts, Krishnamurti is much more accurate than Lahiri. But horary astrology doesn't deal with ingress charts.
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