Learning Horary with Sidereal zodiac?

1
I use Sidereal charts (Fagan Bradley) for my natal and event analyses. (Solar/Lunar returns etc) and I'm quite satisfied with the results.

Now I'd like to learn horary, but all the books recommended to me (Lilly, Frawley etc) seem to use the Tropical Zodiac. So my option are (a) either use these books (say Lilly vol 2) to learn technique, but use them with sidereal charts (b) look for books which deal with horary technique in terms of sidereal charts (suggestions welcome).

If anyone here practises horary with sidereal zodiac charts, I'd greatly appreciate tips on how to learn horary technique.

Thanks in advance.

Thanks Conrad

3
I was thinking of reading *Lilly* and using his techniques (not the Arab material, which is a bit harder, even with Ben Dykes, translated books, at least to me. Lilly's english is archaic but much easier)

hmm so maybe I should wait till I level up enough to read Abu Masha'ar etc.

5
RohanM wrote:
I use Sidereal charts (Fagan Bradley) for my natal and event analyses. (Solar/Lunar returns etc) and I'm quite satisfied with the results.

Now I'd like to learn horary, but all the books recommended to me (Lilly, Frawley etc) seem to use the Tropical Zodiac. So my option are (a) either use these books (say Lilly vol 2) to learn technique, but use them with sidereal charts (b) look for books which deal with horary technique in terms of sidereal charts (suggestions welcome).
Horary principles are fairly standard, so you can take horary concepts from classical works or modern texts and simply apply them in the sidereal zodiac. It's fine to study Olivia Barclay's Horary Astrology Rediscovered (1990), and Anne Ungar and Lillian Huber's The Horary Reference Book (ACS Publications, 1984) is a helpful reference to topics.

But why are you using the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa? From what I've been able to ascertain, the few remaining astrologers who have adopted that ayanamsa don't accept horary astrology as valid. Then for anyone who decides to look into India's Lahiri ayanamsa and sidereal astrology, there's a complex horary system with partial roots in western classical astrology. But any sidereal zodiac or ayanamsa can be used with traditional western horary principles.

If you are using Lilly, by far the most attractive and readable publication is the USA Astrology Classics edition (2005) printed by David Roell. It's best to obtain a copy now as that two-book set may not be reprinted. It's a superior edition in all ways.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

Thank You

6
Konrad
"On reception" . Got it. Trying to source now.

Therese,
I use Fagan Bradley because it gives me *excellent* results with respect to timing events with solar and lunar returns, and (with Placidus houses) in analyzing natal charts. I am *not* a professional astrologer, and have limited time to spend on astrology, so when something works so reliably for me, I prefer to stick with it.

Thank you for your book recommendations. Highly appreciated.

7
You are welcome. On Reception is part of Ben Dykes' Works of Sahl and Masha'allah, and I think Robert Hand published it as a standalone text.

As for your choice of measurement system, I use pretty much the same (Aldebaran is 15 Taurus) and I too get great results. As we are talking about horary, using either it or Lahiri won't make too much difference as there is less than a degree between them.
http://www.esmaraldaastrology.wordpress.com

9
Konrad wrote:
On Reception is part of Ben Dykes' Works of Sahl and Masha'allah, and I think Robert Hand published it as a standalone text.
Yes, that book can be ordered from Rob Hand's web site for about $19. http://www.arhatmedia.com/bookstore.html

But you get a lot more for your money by buying the big Ben Dykes book.
As for your choice of measurement system, I use pretty much the same (Aldebaran is 15 Taurus) and I too get great results. As we are talking about horary, using either it or Lahiri won't make too much difference as there is less than a degree between them.
It's true that using any ayanamsa will give the same results in timing with solar and lunar returns, but Dasa timing will be different depending on the ayanamsa. The only difference in timing using horary is if a planet happens to be at the very beginning or end of a sign. Then the ayanamsa becomes important. So that's an area for research. I used the Fagan-Bradley (SVP) ayanamsa before studying India's astrology.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

10
Rohan

I'm not a sidereal astrologer, but I cannot see any real problem here. We can use techniques like aspects and sign dignities and apply them to the sidereal zodiac or the tropical zodiac - there is a level to which certain things which apply to the zodiac are not necessarily determined by the zodiac calculation itself. Of course it's a matter of debate and dispute and people on both sides can argue that some particular technique or approach is meant to be envisioned in one zodiac or another.

As for horary, your best bet is to simply learn the horary techniques and then apply them to the zodiac of your choice and see where you get to. One thing I would caution against however is retranslating the zodiacs used by other authors into the sidereal zodiac - same for house systems. Open yourself to being adaptive to go with whatever preference a particular astrologer has who is trying to teach the technique. When it comes time for you to cast your own charts, you don't need to follow their preferences of course. Sometimes when we look at natal charts which one astrologer casts in tropical, it can be straight forward to recast it in sidereal - try to avoid this for horary charts by created by others.

I would echo Konrad's suggestion to just read the older material and learn the techniques and apply them in your own zodiac. My preference would be Bonatti, as I find his use of technical vocabulary to be much more clear than Lilly, but then when you feel you have the hang of what is going on, read Lilly and his examples and just read whatever charts he has rather than translate them to the sidereal zodiac. Like Konrad though, I'm also a big fan of 'On Reception' too.

Remember, horary is much more a divinatory art than something like natal astrology, so our compulsions to imagine a "one true zodiac" which we apply to natal astrology so frequently, may not be as impressive in horary, I suspect that using a symbolic language and understanding that is sensible and meaningful to you is more important - if for you that is the sidereal zodiac, use it, if for Lilly it was the tropical zoidac, respect that and understand the techniques all the same. There are very few things which *clearly* and unequivocally meant in one zodiac. The only thing that springs to mind is the concept of the antiscion and contrantiscion - don't get into the habit of 'mirroring' along the cardinal points as these are explicitly tropical in nature, so you'd have to adjust them for a sidereal frame of reference if you want to take these into consideration.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

Paul this is great advice

11
Thank You.

I don't intend to translate zodiacs when reading books by authors who use a specific zodiac. I intend to take the chart as given and learn the technique. So for Lilly, this would be Tropical + Regiomontanus, for Mashallah, Whole House signs, and so on. All good.

Once I have a basic grip on horary technique, I plan to do lots of horary practice with questions asked by friends and family, for which I'll use my sidereal zodiac. I am *not* a professional astrologer, so I have zero fear of failure etc, which should help improve.

I also intend to work through recorded horary charts (so I can check answers and improve my technique) from various books on horary. Here too, I don't intend to translate into my preferred zodiac, but rather go with whatever charts/house systems etc the recorder/author has used. This should help me refine my technique.

Your point about this being a divinatory systems is a very good one, and well taken

Thanks again,

12
Rohan,

I have always wondered the same thing since my interest in astrology was due to Vedic which uses Sidereal, but I now have a decent enough understanding of Tropical to explore this system of horary. However, I am so used to using whole signs, that I was wondering if it would be OK to use Western/Arabic horary techniques on Sidereal whole sign charts.

Anyway, on a slightly different note, you say that you've gotten excellent timing results with Fagan Bradley and Placidus. I have only ever used Lahiri and whole signs in Sidereal, but am extremely interested in finding a technique and system that yields accurate timing results. I am very intrigued by your statement and would love it if you could throw more light on how you use this system with Solar/Lunar returns to time events!